Transcript The people who do market niche and product niche incredibly well have a pricing niche, the trifecta, they can command whatever price point they want because they're in demand, because they do a great job of one thing for one person. All right. Welcome, everybody. Today I'm excited to have Robin Wait with us. Robin is the author of Take Your Shot. He helps small business owners when you get more into that. And today we're going to talk about Stop under selling yourself, how you can articulate your value and confidently charge more. Thanks so much for joining us today, Robin. It's an absolute pleasure, Wade. I'm looking forward to this. And I'm looking forward to spending the next 40 minutes looking at your shirt as well, because I know we were talking about that beforehand. Awesome. Yes. So check out my shirt in case anything we don't keep you entertained. You can look at my shirt. So first of all, I just want to say I normally go right in the Bible, but I really love this. So for those of you all, I'm a short attention span type of guy. So just to give you this is one of the sexiest parts of this for me here. It's a short, powerful book. We're going to get into it, but really good if you're in anywhere where you charge people for what you do for your time. And so we'll go more into Robin. Robin is the founder of Fearless Business. He's a speaker and best selling author of online business Startup and Take Your Shot. Fearless Business is a coaching program which helps consultants and freelancers to stop selling time for money, to productize their service, and to confidently charge more. So again, thanks for joining us. Would you share a little bit about your journey and what led you down this path and why this is so flipping awesome? Because the story that came out of it, I'm assuming, came from what you've experienced. Yeah, absolutely. So I won't do a complete spoiler alert on the book, but it's actually based on one of my early coaching clients. So I set up Fearless Business as a coaching practice in 2016. So I've been at this now coming on for six years. And before that, it was quite an interesting journey. So I ran a marketing agency for the best part of twelve years, from 2004 to 2016. And one of the things which I got out of the agency days. So we used to do web design and branding. So nothing terribly exciting or revolutionary. But the bit I really liked was the branding because we were quite innovative around it. And we used to get our clients to come in and do it in sort of a workshop style format because up to that point, creative sort of work, branding, graphic design and things like that. It was always an hourly rate type thing. And you'd have this thing called Design agency Ping Pong where it goes back and forth, back and forth. It might take months to essentially do probably like ten or 12 hours of creative work. You bill out for us £50 an hour. So what's that about $80 an hour? And she'd do all this work back and forth. The client would get a bit annoyed because it's taken so long, various other things like that. And I was like, has to be a better way. So we actually started probably in our conversation, I'll explain more about the process we came through to productize, that sort of branding process. We ended up cramming it down into a one day workshop. There was during the one day workshops where I got to spend time with the client and yes, we did the branding piece, but I also got to know their business and I was able to start to talk about things which I kind of get is numbers. Like I'm a total geek. So I was able to ask them about the numbers in their business and what their projections worth next year turnover, revenue and strategy and planning and all that sort of good stuff. And so towards the end of the agency days, I realized that's what I actually had a passion for was about all the growth, the levers which you pull within business to help it grow. And so my coach said, well, actually, I think you'd make a really great business coach, Robin. So that's where fearless business came from when I started out, way back before the agency days, actually, and this is where I started to understand business and numbers and things like that, but hadn't really found my calling. I spent four years running as assistance analyst for a medical device company and I was very different. That was all about spreadsheets and databases and various things like that. I learned how not to run a business. Okay, so it ended up transpiring. We doubled the revenue in that business from about 800K so pounds Sterling up to about one and a half million. Over those four years, we managed to outsource all of the manufacturing of the components to the Far East in Malaysia and China, and kept production in house lives responsible for much of that. But as a result of the systems I've put in place, we ended up with about half the work. So we ended up with a reduced workforce, half the workforce, but double the income. That was a good result. But the MD of the business, the owner of the business, super smart guy when it came to designing medical products. Just utter chaos when it came to actually running the business. And so that's why I said, going way back when, before I realized I was going to get into this whole business thing, I was having this, like, PhD in how not to run a business. And that actually, again, informed me about sort of what I know now and what I work with my clients. So, yeah, coming full circle back to now, the coaching practice, we focus, like you said, on helping other coaches, consultants and freelancers to essentially stop making all the mistakes that I've seen other businesses make over those last few years. And I've made myself and really start to ideally in a perfect world way, we want to get to a point where we've got double income, half the clients, and a bit more time on our hands. Absolutely. So one of the things I'm just going to write into sort of an archetype or an avatar that happens. And you and I talked about this, I'm specific to an industry, because then people will say, okay, this is important. The over busy doctor who charges too little, they're overworked. And now they really can't help at the level they want to. Maybe they can't afford the technology. Maybe there's literally physically overworked and tired so they're not as sharp. There's also, of course, the impact it has on their personal life and their family. And that usually comes back around and hurts as well. Can you tie that conversation into one of the first things is why is it such a big deal that we don't want to discount? And you and I talked about that. I'm not trying to steal what you say. But why is that that you teach people that? Because I think there's such a tie in between those two. Because if we just say if I'm overcharging, I'm just greedy, as opposed to no, here's what happens. Here's how it all kind of comes together in a way that is not what we would hope for. Yeah. I mean discounting to pick on something specifically what she said there. So discounting. The maths are quite interesting in that. And I'll try and make it sound a bit more interesting than just being a math lesson. So the Chartered Institute of Management Accountants here in the UK, they did a study on the benefits of increasing your pricing and what the cons are of discounting your prices. And they said if you offer a 5% discount, you've actually got to sell 12% more of the same product in order to make the same net profit. That's because as the money trickles down through the profit loss account, there's this compounding effect which happens as money is spent and eating up. So you've got to sell that little bit more of the same thing. Most people's assumption is if I discount by 5%, I've only got to sell 5% more of the same thing. No, you've got to sell more than 12% when you get up to just a 10% discount. Now you're in the realms of having to sell 25% more of the same thing to make the same net profit. And by the time you get up to a 20% discount, you've got to sell nearly double the same amount of product or service that you were selling before to make the same net profit. The mistake is, like most people take discounting is that they assume that that's a way to stimulate demand for a product. So if the chips down, you got to sell something that discounts it and everybody wants it. So imagine you remember supply and demand. They teach you at like, management school. Business management school, right. It's actually like a seesaw. They don't operate interdependently. It's like a seesaw when you decrease your prices thinking you're going to stimulate demand. Actually, the signal you send out into the market is I've got loads of this thing. So we've just introduced a whole heap of supply into the marketplace. And I don't know about you, but if there were, like, Lamborghinis up and down the street everywhere, would so many people want a Lamborghini? Would it be quite so desirable? I don't really care about Lamborghinis anyway. I'm more of like a classic BW golf type guy. Right. But if there's too much of something, it becomes so much less desirable. So discounting, it has completely the opposite effect of what we actually want to achieve. And interesting, you picked up there's an analogy that you mentioned about surgeons. And I've got something that's kind of similar. So several of my clients actually work in the medical aesthetics space. So they're actually Botox non invasive surgery, basically aesthetic surgery. So they're in that sort of consultant sort of space. And one of my first aesthetics clients, they have one competitor in their local town where one of their clinics was. And before I met them, they had this an issue which kept on cropping up. So they had people who go into their competitors clinic and have some Botox or have some needling down or something like that. They'd have an adverse reaction. So where the face obviously has whether it just puffs up red or they have an allergic reaction or something like that. But they have an adverse reaction in one year, twelve months, they had about 20 adverse reactions come from this other clinic coming to their clinic to then have the problem rectified. And I was like, this is really curious, why is that happening? And so we started to get a picture of what their competitor was doing versus what they were doing. So the first thing was they were giving their prices out online. So somebody would message them how much they cost a Botox and they give them their prices without any context. Okay. Imagine a surgeon doing surgery on a bleeding neck without first diagnosing. Whether that person's got a bleeding neck or sore knee, it just wouldn't make sense. They were just giving prices out, like over through messenger and WhatsApp and things like that. And the reason that was bad was because the clinic down the road, their prices were literally a quarter of what my clients prices were at the time. So much cheaper people window shopping, the cheaper rate will go there. And it transpired exactly like you said. So the clinic that was much cheaper. They were essentially renting a room in like a holistic therapy center, so they didn't have cleaners. So what was happening was the nurse doing the needling was having to wipe down and clean the room in between having clients come in and out and having to rush to do it and all sorts of things like that. The ingredients they were using, so the toxins they were using were inferior standard. They weren't as good as what my clients want to be using. It's actually a very unregulated industry here in the UK as well. So you can pretty much start doing Botox with like as long as you've been trained, as you could be a NASA test or a nurse or something like that, you can pretty much go out and start injecting Botox. This person has like the very basic skills around putting needles in people's faces. So the difference was with my client, they had four rooms, nurse led practitioners with prescriber licenses. They had specialist cleaners come in several times throughout the day to clean down the rooms, admin staff to be able to manage like the flow of clients through the place. So it's just a much better experience. So we tweaked a couple of things. They thought they had to reduce their prices to compete against this person as well. So we went the other way. We ended up increasing their prices because we packaged up what they were doing as well into the sort of treatment plans throughout the year, much more holistic based treatments, trying to get them to focus not so much on the invasive the needles going to face, but could we also introduce some less invasive beauty treatments as well alongside it? So it wasn't always about injecting. And the other thing was as well. I stopped them from sending out messages. So what we did is we had like a concierge service where somebody would ask for a price. They say it's not a policy to give out prices, but what we need to do is get you on a call with one of our nurses just 15 minutes just to find out what your situation is. Thing is well, sorry, this is a long anecdote, but hopefully this is helpful. There were some bonuses which came out of that. So they realized actually when people come in for aesthetics work a lot of times down to the confidence. Mental health is a big issue. So sending somebody to a Backstreet injector with poor quality everything, then to have a retention, imagine what that does to your mental health and your confidence and things like that. So there's all these knock on impacts. But then the thing was when they were able to then concierge people on a call, find out all of the background information and lay their fears, explain the difference between the good, the bad and the ugly in terms of the different clinics and just invite them, not a sales pitch as such, but just come in and experience our clinic before you buy anything, before you make a decision. So my clients conversion rate went through the roof at higher price points, much better experience for the clients, fewer issues around mental health and confidence and things like that because they were able to send them in the right direction to therapy and things like that in some cases. But what was really interesting was the number of reactions from the other clinic dropped to just two in the subsequent twelve months because they were taking more of the market. And ultimately that clinic ended up the other clinic ended up closing down. So you can see that discounting is like just one small area where business owners get caught out. In fact, a lot of the time business owners don't even discount because discounting is the label basically, but because they've started out with the prices way too low, they are discounting. They just don't even realize it at that particular point in time. Hopefully, there's a lot that people can kind of take just from that one example. Yeah, there's so much in there. And I'm going to try to break down a couple of things, at least what I learned when I first started. So I started out and had a plan, a for a business I was going to do. It didn't work after six months. And then I was found myself doing consulting work. And I don't even remember the name of the book. But I read this book and this was 20 years ago plus. But I remember one of the most important lessons I got from the book was you're not going to build out 2000 hours. So in the US, if you go with a 40 hours work week times 50 weeks, that's 2000 hours. So people say, oh, if you bill out at $50 an hour times 2000, you're going to make $100,000. The answer is mathematically yes, if that happened. But in any real universe that's not happening, you're lucky if you do 1000 hours, it's maybe closer to somewhere between 500 to, let's say 800 hours that you're going to build out, even if you're good because it takes time to repair. These are things. Again, you're nodding. You know, these things. And so even just that first number, one of the people I had on interview earlier, Susanne Mariga, said they like to see a person at least charge four times whatever it is that they made. So if they made $50 an hour before and they were making six figures, so you need to be charging at least 200 /hour just to even have an idea. And again, people that might have different numbers, but that concept is we think it's even just a mental error, like somebody who's been in business 20 years. Sometimes I forget bread doesn't cost what it used to cost 20 years ago. And so even just something that simple. It's not always that the entrepreneur or the freelancer has this poor self esteem. It's just that they might be missing an insight. But that insight, it's kind of like forgetting inflation on retirement calculation. It's a big deal the further you go down the page or even little things. Like I remember some of my software clients have said, okay, you'll have this price forever. And now I stick to my word, like 20 years later, the thing I was going to be in business 20 years, 20 years at about 3%. I'm charging about half now, of course, diversified. But so there's little things that sometimes the math, as much as some of us don't want to look out of it, especially if we just love coaching. I happen to be a math geek, a bit like you, but if you miss the math, just the math alone can hurt you forgetting just what it feels like. If you don't mind showing me the difference in a person of what it feels like when you work with clients and they're finally the before and after, what do they feel like when they're charging, just even internally? Well, I'm not sure if I'm charging enough or they're not sure, but you know, things are not working versus when they start charging what they're worth. What does that feel like? And what changes do you see when you work with somebody? What does that feel like to them and how does that impact their business and their life? Yeah, great question. So one way to look at it is about how you value yourself and how you value your time. And a really simple question. Okay, Wade, if I said to you, you have 1 hour left to live, you have to take a dollar amount of money for that 1 hour. For somebody who's going to buy it off you, what value would you put on it the last hour of your life? At least a billion. Billion. Yeah, exactly. So why do you not value every other hour of your life to that amount? And it's because humans don't have the capacity to think. We think life is infinite. We think that we're just going to carry on forever and we think that we've got all of these hours left. But actually when you start to break it down, think about those 2000 hours you've already used up however many years worth of those 2000 hours. Now we've got limited capacity. So capacity is now limited and you're still charging the same as what you did 20 years ago. Again, it just doesn't make sense when there is limited capacity of something. We've already agreed that it's like a scarce resource, therefore it should be more expensive. Think about gold, think about precious metal, stones and things like that. Other scarce resources that are out there. Nfps and various other things like that. They're finite resources and your time is the most finite of finite resources at some point it's going to end. It's a bit more of. But then you've got to start to unpack. What do we do about that? Because a lot of business owners now at that point are going, oh, my gosh, that's that Robin is talking about. Life is ending. That's it like the film don't look up. But one of the other challenges you've got is, like most people see hourly rate charging and pricing as, like, binary. They see as a binary decision. It's either cheap or too expensive. It's a yes or no. I'm in or I'm out. I've got that hour free or I haven't. Okay. So it's a very binary thinking. But the reality is, when it comes to pricing, typically, we've got a bit of a bandwidth. Okay. So the moment your bandwidth is somewhere between zero and 1 billion, right? So that's quite a very bandwidth. Okay. Now probably if we were to kind of break that down and come down like something now more realistic, that tangible as an exercise that people can get their teeth stuck into. Let's say, for example, Wade, if you're willing to play the game, we can actually just try and figure out a live example here. Sure. Do you have a product that you're currently selling or service you're currently selling at an hourly rate or have done in the past? Just imagine one. What is it and how much would you sell it for? Typically, basically what it is is I have coaching products, but when a client comes to me and says, I've got this thing that you've not dealt with before, Wade, but I know you're the guy. So I'll default to 500 an hour. And I'll say, look, I'm going to do my best to communicate to you exactly how long it's going to take and work with you, because I've had people that either they get sticker shock or that sort of stuff and say, look, I'm about to do X the same way I asked to work with the freelancers I work with on Upwork, I'd say, okay, only put 5 hours into this example, whatever it is. So from that perspective, I feel fair of the hourly I'm charging for that specific line of work. And yet I still know that it might get them 10,000 times ROI. And so when you start getting the ten ROI. Okay, I'm good with that. When you start talking 101,000, it's like, Whoa, I might have done myself wrong there and not morally wrong, but I might have short changed myself. So I'm still kind of figuring that out because can I help you figure it out? Would you let me? Absolutely. We're going to be fearless now. That's the plan. Okay, so 500 an hour. Now, the D word here is banned. It's a swear word, a curse word. Okay. And the D word, it depends. You're not allowed to say. It depends for any of the answers. Like subsequent to this point, now. So $500 an hour on average. That's the key thing. On average, how long would it take or how long does it take for you to create an ROI for a client who's paying that $500 an hour, how many hours do they need on average? Okay, about 5 hours. 5 hours. Okay, so we're talking then. So now what we've done is you've inadvertently just productized or packaged up a service here. Okay. Now for some clients, it might be a bit longer, some clients might be a bit shorter. But what we're saying is I will generate 100 times ROI for you within 5 hours worth of work. So for two and a half, $1,000. Okay. That seems really cheap. Right. So you agree it's cheap. Okay. Yeah. And to throw something in there, in my case, I'm doing something because I forget this sometimes that if they stick with what I tell them, they're going to be in business 20 years longer. So this is an ongoing thing. It's not just and this is where it almost sounds like a snake oil salesman, but it's like, no, this is math. This is dude, if you do what I tell you, you're going to save and usually it's about 50,000, let's say. But it's going to be 50,000 over 20 years. So we're talking a million dollars difference just to even make it a nice round, pretty number. And yeah, now 2500 is sounding really small. Cool. So if we went for let's just do something simple. So you mentioned a million pound upside. So if we did 10% of the upside, $100,000, could you charge $100,000 for this thing? I couldn't charge it necessarily that I'm aware of in one setting because it feels like too big of a risk for them. But there could be some sort of method where I'd say, as long as I can help you make sure the result actually happens, because of course, if they don't get the result, they say, well, wait, now we're talking a scam. But if you're going to get the result and if Wade, you're part of helping me make sure that result you solidify and you're one of the variables that I either need or you make it easier for me, then I don't see why not. Cool. So you could do a percentage of the upside down, like on an ongoing basis. We will talk about guarantees on that result as well. So we'll come back to that in a second. What I'm trying to establish, though, is that we've created the bandwidth. It's not too cheap or too expensive or yes or no or a minimum amount. We've created a bandwidth of like pricing from two and a half K to $100,000 and $100,000. What I want you to focus on just for the sake of this exercise is like just charging a fixed fee. Forget about the ongoing I know we can do that to reduce friction in the sales process. Right. But for now, I just want you to think about a fixed fee. But what we've got is a bandwidth between two and a half, 1000 and $100,000. There is a price point somewhere along that bandwidth which lies just inside your comfort zone and just outside it. Okay. Now we're going to do a little exercise here, and this will work for the video. And I'll probably have to explain it for the sake of this is going out on itunes. Okay. I don't want you to say anything, but I'm going to do a little option with you starting at two and a half, $1,000. I'm going to know when we've hit that moment, you don't have to say anything, and then I'll explain it afterwards. So two and a half. So $5,000, 8000. 10,012, 1580. There we go. So you didn't even have like a poker face. Sometimes people I knew what you were doing. Like, is this really going to happen? And of course, yeah. And you had that gut reaction, big broad smile came across your face. And I knew that somewhere between about 15,000, that was just inside your comfort zone, 18,000 was just outside your comfort zone. So in the future, when somebody comes to you and says, I want that shiny thing over there that you've done for these other people, you've got to pitch this is what our agreement now, Wade, you've got to promise me you're going to do this. The next ten people who want that espresso machine, that shiny espresso machine, you're going to pitch it to them at $18,000. Done. Yeah. And I can guarantee because you understand, you explain it very well. They're rationalized about sort of the value they're going to get from that and long term income and ROI and things like that. So you can rationalize that and break it down. It could be that you do 18 grand as an upfront fee plus some kind of a percentage based on success fees. Okay. So you could do that potentially. Now, I can guarantee as well that if you pitch ten people, $18,000, somewhere between two, three or four of those people are going to say, yes, you're still going to get some rejection. It's still going to be some nos, but you're going to get paid somewhere to the order of what does that work out to be? Six, seven times what you would have previously got paid. Okay. Some people may still require a bit more work. Some people may require a little less work. You get paid that fixed fee for doing that piece of work. Let's talk about guarantees now. Okay. Can I jump in on that real quick? Yes, please do. Go for it. It's funny that and what's interesting about that number and you've got a guy with a psych degree analyzing this and the coach, too. So this is like really? But it's so interesting to me is I have many clients who paid me far more than 18,000 when we were done. And those are the ones that the better clients that they did trust, the process that they're like, okay, wait, if you're telling me this, I'm in, man, I'm in, no problem. And the results they've gotten are in the multiples of six figures to seven figures lifetime. And this is where that concept, which I know, you know, it's almost like within Wade, why were you undercharging them? Why are you doing them wrong to even say, why would you sell a car with only two wheels? Yeah, it's exactly that. It's exactly the analogy I was thinking of as well, like $18,000. They've got serious skin in the game. That's a big chunk of cash. If you spend 18 grand on a car, you can look after it. You're going to wash it every weekend, you're going to Polish it, and there's a little thing on it. You get a chip in the windscreen, you get it fixed. You'll make sure you don't Ding the alloys on the pavement, the sidewalk. If you spend $500 on a car, you're going to care a bit of a Ding. Somebody opens it up at the supermarket or whatever, kids spill something in the backseat. Now ask any worth $500, you haven't got skin in the game. And I think that's like super important. But the thing is, when you've got higher price points, both parties have skin in the game. You've got skin in the game because you made a big promise and you want to stick by that because you're a good guy. And they've got skin in the game because they've made that investment and they've given you that big bulk of trust. I was going to talk about the guarantee side of things because people get very hung up on this. I always challenge our clients to ask a simple question of themselves, which is once you've kind of gone through the packaging process and you've gone through that first pricing exercise, which I went through with you, then you have to ask yourself this one question. What have you got to do in order to put 100% money back guarantee on this product? What do I have to deliver? Yeah. So how confident would you be to put 100% money back guarantee on that product? Well, to me it would be conditional if they do what I tell them to do. Easy, no problem. I mean, I already do it with most of my coaching work. Perfect. Well, you're an experienced coach and you're amazing at what you do. So many business owners, there'll be people listening to this will be like, I can possibly put a money back guarantee and nothing's guaranteed. And it depends on this and the other. The excuses start to come out. And I've used the word excuses very purposefully there because they are exactly that excuses, because the reason, actually, that people don't want to put the money back guarantee on is because they have a bit of self doubt about their ability to deliver those results that they promise people. Okay. And I see that in pretty much business owners when we come onto the subject to guarantee. Now, the nice thing you did was you wrapped up the client had to do something. There were prerequisites, which they've got to do. So we both got skin in the game. One of the ways actually, to think about guarantees as well is not necessarily it doesn't have to be ROI linked, but provided we do our best job, you're going to get Roy. But what people really care about is did I get value for money? So it's a feeling, it's an emotion. Do they get the warm and fuzzy when you go, great, we've done the piece of work together. We've got great ROI. Did I get the warm and fuzzies at the end of it? And that is value for money. And it's much better if you wrap your guarantee, especially where money back is concerned around, hey, listen, if we get to the end of the 5 hours and you genuinely feel you haven't received value for money from me, we'll just do a refund. We want happy clients. And again, that again, just helps to reduce that friction that little bit. Yeah. I find that so huge because it demonstrates to people, at least when I've done it, that not only am I confident, but specifically in the version, at least the way I do it to say, yeah, but here's what I need from you. So in order, I'm coming and I'm making myself vulnerable. I'm willing to give you your money back if this doesn't work out. But I need you to do this because it's not magic. And that's the other part because I don't know about you. I've had those clients that will write a big check but think that in writing the big check that everything's done. And those are some of the worst clients in my experience, because then they tell everybody that you do a bad job or you're dishonest because they just wrote a check and they thought in the act of writing a check. And it's like, well, no, if I told you it was a done for you service, then that would be the case. I should have done such and such if you paid me to mow your lawn. But on the other hand, if you taught me to teach you how to mow lawns or to start a lawn mowing business, not mowing your lawn, that's a different thing. Yeah, well, that's the difference. I think there between somebody abdicating responsibility rather than delegating responsibly at that point. So that's probably something for another podcast episode, I think. Wade. So tell me this then for the person who's struggling with just the overall sense of, okay, I've got X number of clients. And are there certain rules of thumb you have that you've found? And obviously this is not set in stone. I can do this. Everybody. This is not guaranteed. This is just an idea that's coming from Robin. We're not sure if this all is going to work. I have to hold this one. But in essence, what do you usually find? So let's use a round number. Whether it's pounds or dollars. Let's say a person is charging 100 an hour for their work. They're a freelancer, they're a coach, they're whatever it is. And again familiar. I'm going to keep doing this manual. This is great example in here and something simple the person is doing, let's just even say not even a full website, a website upgrade, just sort of a retouch up or we got a rebrand or whatever it is. And this person is saying okay, I'm used to doing this and I usually charge either a certain amount or a certain amount per hour. What do you find? Are some of that hour is consistent with the market. So they said okay, I've anchored with the market. I went on, I researched or whatever. So I'm in that safe place and I believe that I've distinguished myself in my branding. So I believe my branding stands out. I'm not trying to be vanilla. I believe I'm or at least I'm Villanelle. I'm really premium vanilla. I'm awesome. But I'm charging safely. How is that number one? And gosh, I was in a two part question. How is that conflict between I think I'm differentiating myself with my branding and yet my price still says I'm vanilla. Let's stop there. How does that happen? Because I've done. That where I'm like but I'm so much better and yet my price still says, well, no way, you're not go into that a little bit if you don't mind first because I just realized that in and of itself is a pretty big question, I think for a lot. Yes. Even just sort of keeping it simple in terms of the hourly rate side of things. So when I challenge people, the first thing I'll say to them is why don't you just double your early rate? And the first thing they say to me pretty much guaranteed is I can't do that because all my clients will leave. I'm like, great, cool. Where's the evidence? Have you tried it? I'm like, no. Most people make this assumption that everybody's going to upstick and leave but they haven't actually gone out and gathered evidence and ask their clients would they be willing to pay more money for that same service. And I'm not a big fan by the way of just jacking the prices up and keeping everything the same. People who are sort of not charging enough, they end up on something called the sales cycle bursting in terms of capacity, not making great profit. When you charge a bit more money, what tends to happen is you have a bit more time to deliver a better quality product, which leads to more money on the back end, which leads to better results. So there's a virtuous cycle which happens when you charge more money. So you have the capacity to be able to add more value as well at the same time. So I'm a big proponent that don't just Jack the prices up. Let's add a bit of value to people's lives as well. Let's make things better. That's a very important thing to say. But the thing is, there's actually two different types of clients within the business. Okay? So you have your existing client base who are anchored to a specific price point, say $50 an hour. And then the moment you put the price up, of course, they're going to get a bit annoyed because up until this point, you've trained them that your time is worth $50. Now, therefore, that's what they should be paying. And so that's kind of more of what I call a PR exercise, public relations exercise, where gradually you may have to just, you know, you can either just rip the sticky plaster off and double the prices, but say, listen, we're going to do all these great extra things for you. We'll have more capacity. We'll have more capacity because some of the clients who don't value us are going to leave, and then we can really focus on you because you really get the value we offer. Or you could just gradually increment it, like just do it in stepping stones, but don't just wait till once a year, maybe do it two or three times throughout a year. So the clients know that you're aggressively increasing your prices and they're Wade of that. But they also can see the added value as you go through the gears. So that's client one, existing clients. Client two, though, is the greatest opportunity. They're the clients you don't have yet. It's the greatest opportunity because they don't know what value you deliver. They don't know how long it takes you to do something. They don't know what your process, your step by step process looks like or what the website is going to end up like. They haven't been anchored to a specific price point. So within reason, you can pretty much put whatever price out there you like. If there's something which is highly commoditized as a product, then yes, you are naturally going to have challenges. But if you know your worth and you're confident the value can deliver and you're also comfortable with rejection as well because you put your price up, you will have a few more people saying no. And that's got to be okay with a detached from the outcome. But yeah, you can do it. And then they go, oh, right. Other clients focus on new business. Perfect. Like we're already winning. The other thing as well is around that validation. So when we went through this process ourselves, we used to do this seven step logo design process, okay? It was long. It was drawn out it used to take us three months. When we worked out the seven steps, we reduced it to six weeks. It was better, but I was like, because it's just the sort of personnel. It's like, what if there's a way we could do this in a day and how are we going to do that? What we realized was the reason it was six weeks, seven steps with six weeks was because of the back and forth between us waiting for feedback from the clients. So I was like, Right. The only way we're going to fix this is if we get the client to come in and if the client comes in, we can actually design the logo for them there and then in front of them, they can be part of the creative process. We can have a fun day, we can get to know each other or buy the lunch and we'll send them away with a set of brand guidelines at the end of it as well, plus whatever else we can fit in. During that day. My business partner thought I was absolutely barking mad when we first launched this, but we did it. The first one was a bit clunky, but it worked. We delivered. That client was happy. The best lesson I had in pricing was we had a client come in and after we did our first one, this is our second client on this product. They said, we heard you did this great one day logo design process with somebody else. Could you do that for us? By the way, we've got a product launch on Monday. Could we come in and do it on Friday? I'm like, Whoa, okay. And I had a picture of the quality cost time triangle. You want it done fast, you want it done well, this is going to be expensive, so I just went, up until this point, we were charging probably about five or £600 available time, right? So this time quality cost can be expensive. I just blurted out £1500, so triple the price. And they said, yes, perfect, great. I assume you want money up front, payment up front. Really? Yeah. Okay. And literally sent the invoice money in the bank before we even got to deliver it. Delivered it on Friday. Happy way they go. Just all of these learnings in just such a short period of time. And then we stepped up another gear beyond that. So that following year, we did about 40 of these one day branding workshops and we created a couple of follow on products. We have logical next steps, upsells and things like that. Average order value for the client then rose to somewhere in the order of about three and a half thousand pounds, so about $5,000. And then we had a client come along who was like, Imagine the UK. I live down in the bottom part of the UK. There's a place called York, which is up in the top part of the UK. And they're like, could you come up to York tomorrow to deliver one of your workshops? And normally we would only allow three people in the room like decision makers. Otherwise it's just like too much going on, too many ideas. They wanted to put their entire software team into the workshop, 23 people to York, which is four and a half hour drive tomorrow with 23 people. And I didn't want to do it. I was just like, I really don't want this gig. I can't be bothered to drive to you like 23 people. So I went 18,000 and thinking they're just going to say no, it's ridiculous, don't worry about it. And the same thing they said, yes, brilliant. And I was like, I'll get in the car then I guess, and I'm going to send you the invoice. Can you pay for it? So by the time I got to York, £18,000 in the bank delivered the work. Client happy, drove back home, long drive back home for richer. So that's okay. But I now have evidence that people would pay a lot more money for something that Joe blogs down the road was charging £50 an hour for. And we can all learn from that. But the key thing I want people to take away is don't make an assumption that people won't buy at the price. Like I challenged you go and pitch ten people at a higher price. Point prove Robin and Wade wrong. And if you do pitch ten people and you can evidence it and come back, we can do a bit of coaching work together. That's awesome. Thank you. By the way, this is great. This is gold. So I love it when I don't have to talk as much. Despite evidence to the contrary, some of the shows from people who told me why do you need to talk less? Because you're really addressing this is really going to help a lot of people. So I want to go back to something you mentioned something. And again, from reading the book and awesome book. When most people talk about this idea of too much demand for products or service can negatively impact a business, they assume that only means if you're under charging. Is it only if you're undercharging? Or can it be that even if you're charging a certain amount? Because there's this whole idea, you and I both know it that well, if you get too busy, we'll just raise your prices. Is that just an old wives tale? Is that true wisdom? Is that accurate? How does that turn out when somebody says okay, but I've still got too much like literally, for whatever reason, it's hot. I'm getting a lot. How can that be? How can a person grow too quickly and then how does that then relate to maybe how they should be pricing if they are growing at perhaps I'll just call it an uncomfortable rate and I'll define an uncomfortable rate of it's really starting to impact personal life. Not that you're soft. All of us have this. Hey, the sun is shining. Let's make a great I'm talking where it starts getting into 16 hours days where you're like, okay, I can't keep up with this. And we're now past the honeymoon of the first month where you and your spouse like, yeah, it's awesome. We're making more words like, no, this is almost disturbing, which sounds weird. It's almost like kids saying, I'm getting too much ice cream. I might get a bellyache. Now into sort of the weirder what does it look like? Or how does the person know where maybe they either have that problem that there's going to be too much demand, or they're just plain and simply they have too many clients. They have 200 clients, and they should really have 100. Yeah. So first and foremost, you can press the business 80 20 the business by removing 20% of the clients who take up 80% of the time. And invariably, in most businesses, that's a true reflection. The ones you take up, the ones who are kind of moaning and whining and asking for help and support, like 20 times a day, they're doing more harm than good in your business. It's keeping you incredibly busy. Yes. But ultimately it's not allowing you to deliver, like, remarkable value to everybody else in the business. So first thing I was saying, when businesses are super busy, 80 20, see if there's a way that you can actually remove those 20% of clients from the base of your business and the ones that are taking up too much time, but they're not terribly profitable, sounds very harsh. But the reality is, like, you have to sacrifice a few lands in order for the others to thrive and survive. So the 80% loss that are left are going to get a much better service and value for money. So that's the first thing. The second thing as well is like some people wear a high conversion rate in sales, like a badge of honor, like they've got their stripes. I'm a great salesperson because I'm converting at 80 90%. When the needle goes from zero to 100% and the needle's already over here bouncing off 100%, you can't improve it anymore, can you? It was fun when you were like 17 driving your dad's car, trying to get it over as far as you could. But in business, it's actually like it can cause a lot more damage. You end up with broken business owners that can't sometimes come back from it. So what I actually recommend is that a good conversion rate is somewhere between one in five and one in three. So around the numbers 20% to 40%. So the needles more sort of over here if there's tons of demand. Well, naturally, a conversion rate is going to be keeping on bouncing over 40%. It's going to keep on heading that way. Increase your prices artificially reduce conversion. So we bring it into that sweet spot because now we've got situational awareness. We can see when needles going too far that way. We can see when it's going too far that way. And now we can influence it with things like pricing decisions or offers or different things like that. So that's super important, remember? And again, like most people, the fear is if I now reduce my conversion rate, there are more people saying no. So fear of failure, fear of letting people down, just pure fear of rejection because the clients are saying no at a certain price point. But ultimately, again, I would rather make the same amount of money with half the clients. Because you get more time to deliver a better quality product. That's super important to remember. But yes, we want to artificially reduce that conversion rate down. The other thing to remember as well, like a lot of businesses do, you know the Fiat Cinquento, the cute little Fiat European. It's an Italian car with a little 500 CC engine. Yeah, 500. Little, cute little car. Right? So you got this little Rickety fierce 500 engine. Okay. And this little beautiful little Bouncy car. Right? And then what happens if we have rocket fuel into it? What's going to happen? No, it won't go any faster because it's only a 500 CC engine. It only has certain capacity and it's rickety. So what's going to happen is it's going to blow a few Pistons and probably explode at some point. Because it's cute little car, little Pixie dust fairy and all that sort of thing will explode out of it. Right? 500 needs petrol. Rocket fuel is designed for a rocket. Now, in this analogy, that 500 CC engine is the business engine. So it's the systems, processes, the people, the finance, all of the different functions of the business. The rocket fuel is marketing and too much capacity. If we add loads more clients into a business that's just holding apart at some point, it's just going to explode. So all we do is we just reverse the process. The most people are like, I got to get more clients. I got to get more clients. Marketing, marketing, marketing. We just reverse the process. We fix all of the inherent problems in the business, first through systems and automation, understanding our capacity constraints, getting our pricing rights. We're getting, like, optimal profitability through the business. We're retaining some cash that we can reinvest into the business and things like that. So we make the business engine a rocket engine, basically, then we add rocket fuel into it because that business is now optimized to scale and blast off into the upper atmosphere. Love that. Thank you. Yes. I forget Luigi from Cars, the movie. Now, I see him if I'm exploding for a second, it's nicer to see him just going fast. But yes. So one of the things that you'd mentioned to me before and this just brought up a very interesting analogy for me, and I'd love to see your thoughts on this. So you and I were talking to pre interview and you mentioned this idea like, why can't we the client and us both enjoy this process of exchanging this high mutual value experience? And I just got thinking, well, gosh, would I rather have 10,000 people who happen to know my name, 1000 acquaintances, 100 kind of friends, or maybe like 50 really high quality friends? And for me, for me, maybe everybody's different. I'd rather have 50 to 100 high quality friends and have my experience be that of life of business. Yeah, it's nice to get likes on Facebook and this Instagram or wherever it is. But if you have a Tik Tok account with a million views, you're never going to meet most of those people. So I'm wondering, what does that do for quality of experience or how does that go together, the pricing? And I'm going to make this a two part. I think they connect, or at least it's something I've I believe figured out or close to figuring out for myself is I want to have these high quality relationships. So with these higher people who can play a higher amount, I have this place in my heart for people that don't have that money, for people in countries that the economics are different, the money conversion is different. And my understanding is that somewhere in there the profits from over here can still help these people. Speak to that, if you don't mind a little bit. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's again, natural human instinct. We're desperate to help other humans. Basically, it's part of our survival instincts, the pack, the hurt sort of mentality. And it's a very veritable core value to hold on to when it comes to business, though, ultimately, if the business isn't profitable, even not for profits and charities have to make money, right? So a business like the one goal in business is actually to make profit. And I know that sounds very capitalistic, but you can do that with a sense of purpose and mission, values and all the rest of it, all the good stuff. But when I get business owners who are like, I just want to help people. I just want to help everybody. I'm kind of like, well, imagine you only earn, I don't know, $10,000 this year. Wade, you've got such limited, finite resources there that you don't really have capacity or resources to be able to help many or if any, people at all. You barely be able to sort of feed yourself and look after your family and pay your mortgage and stuff with that sort of amount of money. But if you're just open to it, you just pause on the helping and the giving back for a couple of years, focus on growing a really profitable and sustainable business. And in two years time, you're now earning $500,000 a year. Now all of a sudden you've got so much more resources by just waiting a couple of years, so many more resources to be able to then start to be able to give back. The other thing as well is about being realistic. You mentioned about those 2000 hours which is then eaten up by admin, finance, marketing, sales, and all the different functions business and the little bit that's left to be able to then do client fulfillment. It's okay to have a small percentage of your time which you can then set aside for giving back activities once you put the oxygen mask on yourself. But I think you have to be realistic about that. 5%, 10%, 15% maybe is like your allocated time for giving back and that's great and very generous. The other thing as well, sorry I'm hitting you with loads and loads of different things kind of ways that you can actually look at this, but hopefully this is helpful. One of the main reasons I write books is because where somebody can't afford maybe to come in and do my accelerator, my business accelerator because I know that not everybody has that sort of money shoved down the back of the sofa. Most people can afford like a Kindle for 399 or a paperback for $10. Or if they smile at me sweetly and ask very nicely, I'll send them a signed copy in the post and I'll cover the shipping costs. Right. So we can still help people by using these amazing marketing assets that we can create. It's like giving birth to childhood, but it takes you like 812 months to put together and publish and everything is very complicated, treacherous journey that you've been on to write a book and then eventually your books out there. But the great thing about it is when you've gone through that process now, I can give it away for free or for not much money. And it has like some core business concepts that is going to help any and every business out there. And what's remarkable is total tangent. Maybe I shouldn't say this, but I always read the one star reviews of my books with great interest because it just gives you quite a neat. I've got the first one star review. I was like dagger through the heart. It was like horrible. I got over myself quite quickly with that bit of therapy. But now I read the one star reviews just to pinch yourself because I'm interested in the psychology behind it. Online business startup take your shot. Like, I don't know, it's always difficult when you want to beat yourself up. I think they're great business books. There's tons of advice in there. One person didn't even read it because they disagreed with my definition on the back, on the blurb, on the back cover of what a startup was. Now I've been in business for 25 years. Startup is just a business that just started up. But he was like, no, it's a software startup. It's a SaaS business. I was like, okay, well, definition. What did you make of the rest of the book? I didn't read it. You just missed out on all of these ideas and concepts and potential new information because of one word. And it's like, I don't know, people's mindset sometimes. It's weird. Well, it was funny you say that because I remember it wasn't you who left that review, was it? It was not me. It might have been the same guy who left me a one star review, but actually, that was allegedly it was a woman. And it was a book. And I forget the exact details, but let's say the title was and I know the title of my books, but I forget which book was. So I'm just going to say, let's say it was about how to grow apples. And this person said, that's not how you grow oranges. What do you do with that? Genuinely, I have no response to that. I don't know what to do. That sounds like an Alanis Morissettes on exactly. I don't know what to do. That's like, okay, no problem. I just realized with that comment, I just alienated a massive part of the audience who were like. Depends how you take that. Well, if you understand Alanis. Yeah. Look up Alanis Morris. She used to date Ryan Reynolds. That will get them interested. Then they'll say, oh, she used to date Ryan Reynolds. And now I'll look at the Landis Morris before that, they weren't going to look it up. All right, awesome. So, wow, this is what I was hoping for and more. So again, everybody really. And you don't see me if you listen much. The reason and by the way, this is not to say the other books people I listen to have on are not great. I'm not a high volume reader. And for me, I have a certain attention span. So when I have some of my other friends have written longer books, it's not that they're not great. I have a harder time implementing why I love books of this length. And this is by the way, then there's a new thing going on around a concept called a mini book, which is more of like a special report that's always been. But it's put in the paper. This is not a special report put in the paper. This is a book. But I just like when I can get one thing that's actionable. So I already have a couple of the ideas. And maybe just share, if you would, real quick. Because you know what? I'm going to share. You critique this. How about this? This will show how good, how well you did it writing or how good I did listing. And I'm not going to give away the best parts, but in essence, this is about somebody who has a business. They're a golf pro, and they're charging an hourly. They're struggling because everything is about an hourly. Their clients are paying them when the client feels like it. Many people are missing their appointments and this golf pro runs into a mentor that helps them understand how to say something as simple as well, what are they coming for? Well, they want to drive the ball longer. Well, okay. Well, that's a product like you asked me earlier. How long would it take to drive the ball longer? I don't know, eight weeks if they did X, Y, and Z. And then now that's not X per hour. Is that a pretty good I'm not going to read the book now. It's not that expensive by the book because that's for me what I'm excited to do, because I have clients that come to me and they say, wait, I don't want your 3000 or 6000 or $10,000 coaching program, not because I don't believe in you. I'm acknowledging I've done this, too. I don't want all five pieces or I don't need all five pieces. Or more commonly, today, I don't have the bandwidth for all five pieces. And I don't want to just throw away money, but I don't want to disrespect you and say, hey, can you give me a discount? So I'm now looking at the products I have and saying, okay, what are those three or four main pieces? So, for example, with three day weekend, I need a better personal life summit. I need to make more income yesterday summits. I need to learn how to delegate some. I want to learn how to scale without losing my mind. And I'm not done with this. But I'm now putting those into I mean, is that kind of a lot of what this is about? And then put a bow on this, if you don't mind, because I did, I think a decent job and maybe you can do that. That was like a bad book review. Actually, my video book review is probably better than this. Thank you. Now you've got synopsis wise, you've got it bang on. And there's a couple of salient things around, sort of why I wrote the book. So one, it's based on Russ, who is one of my first coaching clients. So it's based on a true story by page 74. There's a bit of artistic license. I'm not going to lie just because we got into setting his goals and he had very extravagant goals at that point, some of which come true, actually since. But also I didn't want to write something that alienates the reader by it being a dry how to book where there's no emotion. And it sounds like almost too formulate to be true. Just follow this blueprint and you will end up with XYZ. So actually, a lot of the emotions in the book and I couldn't get them from rough, but they were actually drawn from my own emotions of running businesses over the last 1220 years. So you get a feeling for what it's like on the journey. That Russia. Oh, that narrative, by the way, when I read some of that, I'm like, lived that lived that lived that way too many times. The conversation with the spouse. But wait, we're almost there. Gosh. I can't go. Oh, yeah. And I forgot that such. Wow, you should write a novel, man. Some of that is just so because it was so real, it was like, okay. Yeah, well, that was me telling that story. So from my perspective, but about rough, if that makes sense. And then obviously, he meets the mentor. But, yeah, in terms of the offering of products, the products is all based on it has three things in place effectively. So it needs to have a clear and specific outcome of results that is going to be derived when the person buys that product. So it's going to deliver something very specific. The second thing, it needs to be delivered over a measurable period of time, fixed and measurable period of time. And the third thing is for a fixed fee. And I give credit to the great coach called Rich Lips. And he wrote a book called The Prosperous Coach, where he kind of breaks down, like the constituent parts. He was talking specifically about coaching programs, but I took that notion, actually, you can apply it to pretty much any service client business. And so when you have those niche sort of products which deliver a specific result and you've got a suite of five different solutions there, that's absolutely perfect. You can even break it down a little bit further. So when people talk about Niching and I know this is a whole broad, different subject. Too many gurus out there, like, experts talk about niche being your market niche, your ideal client avatar. Right. And they only go, like, very surface level with it. I actually believe that you should have a niche within a niche within a niche. They should be really quite detailed about that. So in Russia's case, he didn't just want people who play golf too big, like every golfer, that's not a niche. So it's like specifically ones who go out and play golf with business colleagues and specifically ones where they wanted to impress other people. So it was like you're going out for a four ball with the CEO of the company, that style, that level of like. So he was very clear about who he wanted to work with. But then on the flip side of that, it was then looking at the products, it was like about having a suite of products or one specific product that did something really well for one specific person. So we've got a product niche. Market niche and product niche. Niche is a niche with a niche and a product niche. And what I've noticed is the people who do market niche and product niche incredibly well have a pricing niche. The trifecta, they can command whatever price point they want because they're in demand, because they do a great job of one thing for one person. That's awesome. Cool. That might be another episode or another book in and of itself. Awesome. Dude, thank you so much. There's so much to this. And this has been very helpful for me. And yes, I'll keep you posted on what happens because I actually have something that you talk to me about. That $18,000. I have something that literally I've charged less amounts and simply have had some of my better clients tell me I should charge more for it. There you go. That's your effort. Awesome. But I also agree with you for sure. And this is the other part, and I just had this reaction to people saying, well, just raise your prices. I'm like, well, okay, am I not giving more? Well, my understanding is if people are telling you you're way under price, that's different. But if somebody says, oh, I like, where your price? Your price is fair, and you want to raise your price, well, then yes, I think you should be doing something with that, or at least my conscience kind of need that. But again, like you said, different people perceive it differently. If somebody else values that more, would I rather work with the people who really value what I do or the people who don't? It takes me 50 years, but I know the answer to that one. Now, I heard an amazing example, and maybe that's a good sort of anecdote to finish to sort of wrap things up on. So think of your niche and the product. Niche market niche. The example somebody I heard on Clubhouse the other day, they were talking about this woman who was the marriage counselor for high net worth individuals. Her fee, minimum fee is $250,000 to work with her because obviously high net worth individuals worth hundreds of billions of dollars. If they have canceling and they stay together, it's going to save however much in divorces, let's face it. So $250,000 for a lot of people, that's expensive. Imagine then you take that 250K product and even if you drop the price to $25,000, but then try to sell it to newlyweds, why do newlyweds need marriage counsel? They've just got married. It's like honeymoon period. So they're going to reject that. They're going to say $25,000 to expenses, don't need it. Right. You could then divide it by a factor of ten. Again, charge two and a half, $1,000. Right. So for exactly the same piece of counseling. But then if you pitch that two and a half, $1,000 to somebody who is single, like, I'm single, why do I need marriage, like couples therapy? It's like I'm single. I don't need it. So you can have a product that's 100th of the price, exactly the same product, but there's just no need or demand for it. And I think this is where people get quite mixed up. You can either look at that being rejected by that person at two and a half $1,000 and getting upset and taking it personally, or you can rationalize it and go, no, it wasn't for them. I'm going to go out and find the right sort of client who really gets the value. I've lost your audio. No, that's me. I put myself on mute sometimes when you're going around coughing. So, no, that's perfect. That nails it. That's exactly what I think says it. Because again, if you're not in front of the right person, it's just not going to work in it. And it doesn't mean anything wrong. Doesn't mean your product stinks. Doesn't mean that gosh darn it, nobody likes you. It just might be the wrong person. Awesome. So, sweetheart, there's so many other fish in the sea of your parents. Don't worry. She's not for you. He's not for you. It's just kind of like that thing, like, yeah, there's seven and a half billion other people out there. It's going to be okay. Awesome. Thank you so much. Not only have I enjoyed this, this is one of those interviews I'm like, well, I hope they enjoyed it. Now, I think there's so much that you brought into the granular details, which I know at times you said there were tangents, I think so relevant. So thank you so much for coming out, for sharing this. Where can people learn more about you? And of course, we'll have the links in here. And then you mentioned you had something you wanted to share with the audience. Yeah, absolutely. So I'm on most of the sort of social media channels, but probably the best place to go to is Robinwaite with an e on the end of it. Robinweight.com. So that's just got a bit more of there's a blog on there and lots of videos and things like that, which we share. But also at Fearless Biz, we've got lots of free resources, which hopefully also kind of based on a lot of the subjects we've been talking about today for people just to go and jump into and get to know a bit more about what we do. This is my best Weather Girl impression here. So take your shot. If people do want a copy of it, I mean, obviously if they want to make a donation to my beer funds, they can go to Amazon and buy the Kindle and paperback and things from there. But I have got a few limited signed copies, which I'm happy to pop in the post as well. So if people want a copy of that, go to Felixtys. And I'm only doing this because it's UBI for your friends on the Podfest. I do. I don't do this for everybody I haven't figured out yet. Do you reckon if I sign it, do you reckon the value goes up or down? I'm not sure. We'll see. That's awesome. I remember when I first learned to sign books the first couple of times was very awkward. Like why do you want me to sign a book or who am I to sign a book now? It's like you sign books. It's nice, it's a nice thing. It's a personal touch. So yes, I got mine. Boom right. There you go. Thank you so much for coming out and sharing your wisdom. What you have with us really appreciate that. For those of you listening, I can tell you so much what he's sharing. I've lived if you read the book, you're going to see a lot of stuff. If you're a freelancer, if you're an entrepreneur, you're going to see a lot in there that's going to reflect where you're at. So thanks again for coming out and as always I look forward to helping you impact more people and make more money and less time doing you do best so you can better enjoy your family, your friends and your life. Thanks for listening.