180. Know Your Pattern for Taking Action to Work Less & Achieve More with Gail Swift

Every single being on this planet is capable of solving problems their way. When we know that they are capable, we can release our hands off the grip of the how and allow them their greatest attribution to the world and not get in the way of that.

Welcome, everybody. Today I'm excited to have with us Gail Swift to talk with us about how knowing your pattern for taking action can help you work less, achieve more, and just be a lot more efficient and effective in what you do. Thanks so much for joining us today, Gail.

Best podcast ever. Wade thanks for having me.

Awesome. See, I tell people to say it all the time. Gail actually followed the instructions on that, so thank you for that. Gail is fiercely committed to guiding people in their natural abilities. What really excites her is her work, knowing that every person has a pattern, a way that they do things best and that can predict their path, of how they can create the best results and make the best things happen. And this is something that's work I've been involved with, but rather than me talking about and let her talk about. So, Gary, would you share a little bit about how you got involved in this work and what excited you so much about it? Because I know there's a lot of assessments out there, a lot of things people have heard of. What is it you do and what do you find that's made it so powerful?

Right? And you're right about this is obviously just from my perspective, and people's greatest pain is usually their greatest mission field. I would say the way that I work, and similar to you, it's not celebrated. It's hard to be celebrated in school. So I was running up against a lot of adversity with, sit still, be focused. Can't you focus? Why are you hopping around? And my mom, even when I was older, in high school, she's like, oh, my gosh, are they going to survive? Is she going to make it? Because I was all over the place. So in 10 00 19 91, she ran across a national network of women in sales meeting in Chicago and heard about Colby for the very first time. She said, this is what my daughter needs to focus. This will do it right? This will button her up, get her on track, only to find out that that was the first time I experienced my freedom in my last minute random way of working. So what she thought was going to be a focal point actually turned out to be floodgates opening for me. Someone told me that I was perfect just the way I was.

And then from that point on, I have continued to learn. And it didn't get real for me until I had my own kids and was left with those decisions. But we can talk about that more later. But that's how I got into knowing about it.

I'm familiar with the Colby. To call it an assessment or profile is definitely, I think, an understatement. But to somebody hearing about it, okay, it's in that field. And my experience of it just has been it's a tool that I've used for, gosh, over 20 plus years, maybe 30 years now. And the insurance agency owners that I work with, I come from that field, have found it indispensable. The best ones, some of them don't know about it, but the ones who not so much, they're not trying to peg somebody into a hole, but they're trying to see gosh, is this person probably going to be a good fit for what we're looking for? The Colby has been one of those few priceless tools that gosh, I'd say at least 95% of the time it's been dead on accurate. When it's usually not, it'll say, hey, we're not sure there's something that's kind of going on here. And then even the 5% of people or so or 10% that I've seen that their performance has not been alignment with their Colby. They've said, I'm working against my nature. I'm pushing. This is hard for me. Wait, wow.

So in order, the assessment was wrong. It was the assessment said, yes, this is not their area, but because family, money, things that were important to them, they said, okay, I'm going to push through this. And then I can even think of two people, one of whom, after the finances became less of an issue, she actually then pulled away back from the position she was in and moved to the other position. There were three main positions in the agencies I work with, and she moved from one back to the other one, which was spot on her Colby.

Right.

But she had been working on one. But again, because she had bills, she had a family situation. She was going through divorce, so she was hungry, so she forced herself. And again, that's cool, too. But it was just something that was so clear that, oh, wow, when she was back aligned with what the Colby said for and again, it's not what you have to do. It was just something that's like, oh, wow, and to kind of what you said, when I take mine, I've taken it twice, and the results were literally one number off. So as I've heard multiple times the results, it's not one of those things that changes, at least in my experience. And that's what I've learned. And it explains a lot. And maybe just as a last thought, just to kind of give people different people, do different things, it may not be as detailed as like an enneagram for those people who know what an enigram is, which goes really deep, and it's almost creepy how deep it goes, but it's also, at least in my experience, a lot more applicable than a Myers Briggs. And that's not to knock Myers Briggs I'm saying things that you're not supposed to say because you're supposed to be impartial.

I'm going to be a little more partial, but it's something or even a disc sometimes to me, the Kobe is like, no, this is it right here. And again, it's not meant to be limiting, it's meant to be liberated. So maybe let's go with that theme because you talked about your mother thought, okay, here's the solution. I'm finally going to get her to, I don't know, comply or do what I'm hoping. And yet it was something that was liberating for you. What was that like for you? And how have you seen that play out for other people when maybe they've been working out of sync with what, let's say their Colby would be, and then they start realizing, oh, wow, here's how I could do that.

And Wade. You've seen that? You've seen people firsthand, like, declare, I'm going to work against my grain. And that one example that you gave me of the woman. Obviously, I hope that was a short term.

I hope that was two years.

Two years. Holy smokes. So have you seen because, honestly, if you decide and you know you're working against your grain, you know what that can do to someone, their health problems abound.

It's difficult. And I'll just say there were other things that didn't weren't working in her life at the time. So there was it's funny that you mentioned she worked really hard for the money. I think it was a struggle for it at times. Later, there were other issues that surfaced. So it wasn't tranquil, it wasn't smooth. Very mature person, wonderful person. But again, it was one of those things. It was almost like saying that, look, fire burns. And then the kids like, no. Yeah. So it was still pretty clear for me, actually, with the Kobe, of all the different assessments, I almost feel like I put too much stock in it because I don't like to do that with assessments. And yet it's so accurate that, again, for me, it's not about limiting somebody. It's about saying, wow, this is just kind of what your nature is. It's that thing where people say you can be anything you want. Yeah, but if you're shakyl and ill size, it's easier to be a basketball player. It's really hard to be a jockey. You're going to break the horses back and you could. But is it really what you want to be doing?

Yeah. First of all, congrats on you using this because obviously you have seen firsthand that when people are going with their natural way of working, retention, employee, they stay on board, they stay with it, and then you speak into that. So you're encouraging them to go with their grain, which will just keep them around that much longer. Is that true for you?

Absolutely. Well, that's the thing when people ask whenever you do coaching, you know, this coaching is a fuzzy field, right? In this sense, once you teach somebody something they didn't know, they say, oh, I knew that then they don't necessarily even want to pay you for that, because now it's part of what they knew, and everything becomes kind of obvious. But one of the things that always shows up when people say, wait, okay, if you talk to me anything about burnout are people happy in their job? All these things that seem fuzzy. And if you're really kind of bottom lineish and left brain, you think, oh, this is just people being soft is I just refer back to employee turnover, because especially the smaller your business, the more painful employee turnover usually is. Unless you've got high levels in any position where it's like there's the finances of it, which are horrible, because if you have the person working for you every month, they're working for you at the wrong place, they're at least not as productive. It's hurting you, then you've got to let them go, or they leave. Then they leave messages behind, and you find little papers and the stacks of the stuff, literally, we found stuff.

The old school offices with the white things, with the grids. You find literally files above, hidden, of people that didn't want to do work. And then you say, okay, now I've got to go recruit somebody, which, if you don't love your recruiting process, is very painful. And then I've got to hire two to three or kiss two to three frogs. And then now each time I fired a person that didn't work out, that cost me, so there's this, and then, oh, by the way, it's a complete pain in the butt. So that alone, if you're a small business owner, when you say, wade, I just got my business to a certain level, and it's taking me three years to get here. Every time I lose somebody, I've got to go back to square one and work my tail off for another six to nine months just to get back to where I was and then try to get back to momentum. So for me, the alignment and you just said it the ability to keep people long term, to know that they're likely to be happy and content and productive, that's so huge. To expansion and growth and scale, as opposed to the people I've seen that can't do that.

And they're constantly turning over people, and they don't want to do assessments. They don't want to study one direct like Colby MBTI. They won't do any of it. I just want to hire somebody. I'm going to trust my gut. I'm pretty smart, but I've gotten my butt kicked, and I've definitely even in guessing Colby, you probably do this sometimes, I'll guess. Colby's and sometimes I nail it, and sometimes I'm out in the left field.

Oh, yeah, I'm wrong all the time. I'm wrong people. They're like, well, guess I'm like it's not like that I'm not in that person's mind. And like you said, this is one part of the mind. There are three the cognitive and the affective. And you were listing some affective instruments to measure. And what I like about this is you and I do not need to do things over and over and over again the same way we do not need to do that. As a matter of fact, if they are too routine, we will probably mess them up because they're too routine, which dovetails nicely into your three day weekend just to have some more space, some more freedom, because we need choices. But I totally lost my train of thought. See, there I go.

No worries. Well, here I was going to tell you something that you mentioned there.

Yeah.

So in the western North American mindset, we revere entrepreneurs. We revere people who create things, and we think they are smarter than people who, let's say, implement things. And I bought into that for a long time. And as someone who got good grades and got that feedback, it was like, you'd think it's good? Okay, well, you're smart. You're supposed to do this. And so as somebody and you and I talked about what my Colby profile? It's a 5383. And number three, I'm a three follow through, and I'm an eight. Quick start. I like to initiate things. I don't like to finish them. I'm not against finishing them. I will finish them.

Because you need to wade. Not like you don't need to.

Right? Oh, thank you. Yeah.

Big difference.

Exactly. Let's go into that. To say, but long story short, when I finally hired somebody, that was almost the inverse of what really complimented me, so really well. It was so clear to me that I wasn't more intelligent than this person. I wasn't more intelligent than the support person, the admin person. They were a flippin genius at things that I was not intelligent at. And people would say, what do you mean, Wade? You knew how to do it 50 million times. But I can't stay focused that long. It's not possible. So it's not just, Well, I'm so cool, and I'm the executive. I'm going to go create something else. It's like, no, I'm going to mess it up. And they have had a skill at saying, okay, I can create consistency and precision in a way that I literally could not, or, again, working so against my nature. And so that was something that really helped me even get over this myth that the leader, the entrepreneur is better than, as opposed to now. We really need a team of people. And if there's all these different things that kind of need to get done, yeah, one person is not going to cut it.

I'm sorry. I mean, you felt it, but that you felt that going. You felt that resistance, and I felt that, too. So I feel for you going through that and I agree with you. When an entrepreneur tries to make it something, it's not. So Shark Tank, they try to have consistent activity every single day. I have a limited amount of time, as do you, for that consistent activity. And that's how I've used that strength in what we're talking about is follow through, which is the need for systems and organization. And all of these behaviors we're talking about, there are four of them, and it's on a scale from one to ten. And the only difference between a one and a ten is time spent there. The intensity is still the same. So you and I spend time and intensity preventing rigid systems from entering our world. And at the other end of the spectrum, those people need, like, your person that helped you. They need systems and structure, and they need to finish what they start. That's why that works so well. And also, the other ingredients that you had is respect. You respected the difference, and hopefully she knew how you worked, and then you respected your lanes, and you let each other do what you do best and didn't try to change it.

Yeah, and I think that's one of the things I found when I've worked with teams, the team member who was working in time, she was immensely aware of my tendencies, because when you're with Boss, you're just doing what you're doing, and they're like, oh, jeez. It's almost like the team's responsibility to smooth things out. And if they don't smooth things out or fill in the gaps, again, whether it's their nature or not, that's their job almost by default, whether you ever even declare it or not. And I've seen the difference between leaders that are aware of their blind spots or where their weaknesses, and they intentionally hire that, and they communicate and say, hey, I'm not great at these things. And with that respect, like you said, of, I really need you to help me with this because I can't do this very well, versus, yeah, well, you do this, I'm going to do this, which is more of that view of delegation that I think is incomplete because, number one, it's very unintentionally or intentionally egocentric. It assumes that everything I love to do is awesome, and then everything I don't love to do is just garbage work.

And so if you see that too, I used to feel guilty about delegating stuff, so I'm like, Well, I get to do all the fun stuff. They get to do all the not so fun stuff work. And then you start talking, and they're like, I don't want to host a podcast. I don't want to talk to people. I don't want to be in front of a group of 100, 200, 300, 500 people talking. Oh, God, please, no. But when I realized, okay, I don't want to do the same task 20 times. And again, in that sense, I think I said it will you speak to the need, because that's what nailed it, is the difference between I could do it, but I don't need it to be perfect. I don't need the system to be perfect. And yet some people that high follow through, if I'm remembering correctly, needs that consistency. Otherwise it's almost disconcerting for them.

Yes. So my family runs the gamut, and I think, honestly, they were born very different. For me to use them as live guinea pigs and examples for times like this, and affective. So the enneagram, I'm an eight on the enneagram, by the way. I love those affective instruments, and they help, and they do identify the part of the mind that talks about your likes, your wants, your desires, your motivation, right? And then Colby comes after that. So you need to identify your motivation before you're going to take action. If people don't care, they're not going to produce. You know that. And I know that. If they don't care, they're not going to produce. So you definitely need motivation to see the Colby number come to life, because that Colby number is how they will solve problems. And to go to the initiating follow through, that is in the 7th through ten category. I have a son that is in that category, weight. And when he was little in school, and I would come and say, all right, let's go to school. And he was putting together a Lego, and he would say, I have to finish the Lego.

What are you doing? And I'm like, oh, my gosh, what is wrong judge, what is wrong with you? Can't you just drop it? So what was I doing? First of all, I was judging, because I didn't know. I was thinking that there was something wrong with him because he didn't do it my way. That showed up that way. Then running errands, I would say, all right. He would say, mom, how many errands are we going to run? And I would tell him, and if I said, I have to run across the street, he would say, you changed the plan. You said three, and now you're running four. And again, I didn't know this about him at the time, so I was like, can't you be flexible? Why are you so can't you just go with the flow? Right? So I started to judge his way of working, and I even started to do an effect. So it started to ooze into, this was not good, until I realized how he worked. And I was like, nirvana, the lights came on. Oh, my goodness, this poor boy needs to finish what he starts. And I don't.

He needs a plan, he needs a timeline, and I don't. And so when he would do homework and come down, when I called him for dinner and he had an attitude, and he said, mom, I really needed five more minutes, I said, go upstairs, take your five minutes, because I'd rather have a great kid finish what you start. Communicate. Right? So it's important to communicate. So he said, Mom, I need five more minutes. I need ten more minutes. So when you communicate your way of working with those around you, it makes a world of difference, and you're not apologizing for it, right, Wade? You're not apologizing for your last minute. You pull it out every single time ability, because you do be last minute. That's what I would say to you. And it's no apologies. It is standing in it and knowing it and being able to articulate your needs, for sure. That was a lot.

Yeah, there's so much there. One of the things that I eventually came to, and Nicole Be helped me explain this to people because I would talk to a lot of so I've worked a lot with insurance agency owners, and that's one of the main business. That's the main business model I've been involved in 35 plus years, and their business models are residual income model. You have clients that you want to keep coming back, but like any other business, you acquire clients, you retain clients, and then you cross sell. So in that way, it's not really unlike any business that you're involved in. And what usually happens in the dynamic is the business owner is usually more entrepreneurial because, of course, that's just the nature that's the filter. It doesn't necessarily mean they're more of a quick start or less or less, because I've seen different types. But in general, there's almost this sort of trickle down sense, but it's not as precise. One of the models I tell people is like, look, let's be like a dentist office. The dentist roles are kind of clear, at least in North America. The dentist does the root canals, the cavities, the drilling, that sort of thing.

The dentist comes in at the end of the teeth cleaning that a dental hygienist does. And the dentist gives his or her blessing and says, okay, it's all great. When the dentist goes, that means that's a root canal. It's going to be $5,000. You're not going anywhere else. Like, the dentist closes because they have authority. So there can be good, I think, to that, of clarity of roles and who does what. But then there's this sense of almost lack of appreciation that can become interesting because what I would tell the business owners to say, look, you've told me you love the residual income business part of your model. You love that you have repeat income. You love that if you have an off month, you sold business two, three, five years ago, that keeps renewing for you. And that's important, right? In an insurance agency model, it might be anywhere from 60% to 80% of their income is repeat income. Right. Great. So now let's think a second. Mrs or Miss insurance agency owner. You're not actually involved in the day to day specific to their model. Let's say auto insurance and home insurance sales.

You're involved in some of the more planning and little more advanced conversations but your bills are being paid by this other stuff. Who do you want taking care of that? Wait, I want somebody who doesn't get bored, who follows procedures, who does things consistently and who will do exactly what I say that they do, not in a power over way, but I want them to follow the procedures.

Sure, great.

I said so. That's the word I used to use that's like a genie, I said. But here's the thing. The genie will do what you ask as long as you treat them respectfully like a person. Pay them well. All those other to me obvious givens. But if they do it wrong and they're like three degrees off but they're following the process. It's your job not theirs to fix the process because their strength is not pivoting on the fly or to use football term. They're audible the last minute play call. That's not their strength.

Right?

And so I think of a line from what the book Atlas Shrugged or concept where we talk about how somebody was just waiting at a stop light at three in the morning and the light was red and they just wouldn't go because the light stayed red. And to an extreme a ten followthrough might say well I'm going to stay because the light says red, darn it, and I'm not going to go anywhere. I don't want to improvise and yet again in the right position that can be so beautiful and that person can liberate someone with your profile or mine to then go create and again doesn't mean that either is better but the harmony can be so nice, right?

Really good point. Yes.

So let's go back to the basic definition, conation because a lot of people are not used to that word and you've talked about three different ways you talk about affect and conation. What are the three main ways that people process or how we measure and then what is conation and how is it distinct from other areas that let's say we're used to measuring?

So there's cognition, cognitive, that is reason learned behavior, grades, IQ, things like that, that's cognition that is specific to industry, obviously learning the traits of the industry. And then affect is your personality if you're an introvert or an extrovert and there are a lot of tools to measure that and then those two can change based on experience, right? The more you know your cognition changes and affect can change from year to year based on your circumstances, based on a lot of things. Affect can change if you're an extrovert or introvert or your desires and your motivations change but the coinitive part of the mind does not change. And when you asked about the are you talking about the behaviors? And Conor, I'll tell you what cognitive means but is that what you're talking about? Or were you talking about the three parts?

Just even though first the three parts? Because, again, conation, that's what I think most people are not familiar with. I only ever hear it when I look at a Colby.

Right. It is your will, your volition, how you solve a problem. It's instincts. And instincts on their own are a subconscious force. Kathy Kobe would tell you they just sit there. But the test, the Colby A index, a stands for adult. That puts you into a state of having to decide what to do, most likely or least likely. So it forces activity. It forces you to be engaged and decide what you're going to do. And so the Colby donation is your will, your instincts, your needs for solving a problem that do not change over time. So you're born with them and you will die with them.

Yeah. And I remember when I first heard that, because I don't like being told what to do any more than I'm sure you do. I was like, now it's got to be able to change. It's got to this, whatever it is. And yet what I've seen is that just different. A high fact finder. Let's say I've met a lot of high fact finders, and there's definitely a lot of common traits, and they're not the same person because there's other things, their history, there's a gazillion, other variables. But from an applied working standpoint of I need to get a done. Wow, there's a lot of similarities there. Maybe would you mind sharing a little? The four main areas that are measured quick start, fact finder, insurance, amount of order, of course. Fact finder, follow through, quick start, implementer.

You did it. That's it.

Well, that's how I got the ex. I just saw the thing in my mind, the colors. Share a little, if you would, about just a quick summary of each of those, if you don't mind, because this might help. And now it's even focused on the person that's listing this that's saying, okay, because I feel like, actually you and I have kind of geeked out a little bit, and I'm wondering even if we've even left some people behind at this moment, as far as just the details of it. So share a little bit about that, if you don't mind.

Sure. Absolutely. Fact finder is the need for information, details and information up at the top of the spectrum. That person needs very little detail to make their best decision. I have a son that's a two in fact finder, and my husband is an eight, so my husband needs a ton of information to make his best decision. An example of this is in college, when we met, I would ask him so many questions so fast, and he was not happy. Wait. He kept saying, it depends. It depends, it depends. And of course, I was judging, and I said, I'm what? Make a decision. Fast is better. What's wrong with you? I feel so bad for saying that. But he needed more time to decide, is the point. And he initiates. In fact, finder. The second mode is follow through, and that deals with your need for systems and organization up at the top of the spectrum. You and I do not have a need for a rigid system. We do not have a need to finish everything. We, Stuart Wilde need things flexible, and we need to skip steps shortcut. And at the bottom. I think I gave you some examples of my son, Noah, when he does need a plan, and he needs to know what's next in the worst case scenario.

The third is quick start, and that is your need for risk and uncertainty at the top of the spectrum. One, two and three. Those people need to stabilize. They need to be I would say I always say to people, tell your friends you don't want a surprise birthday party, right, if they're in the 1230f quick start. So they work to minimize risk. At the bottom of quick start is the need for innovation, the need to create. Think off the top of your head. Brainstorm come up with ideas very quickly and freedom to choose. And then the last one is implementer. That is your need, literally, for space intangibles, hands on. That's a physical mode. At the top of the spectrum, those people need to envision what something will look like in their mind. And at the bottom end of the spectrum, they need to get their hands on the world to make it a better place. I have a son that is an eight in this mode. This showed up when he was grabbing kitchen knives when he was two years old. Like, knives are bigger than his head. And he kept grabbing the knives.

And I thought to myself, well, I'm just going to go with the grain and teach him how to use the knife safely because he keeps grabbing it. He's been in competitions for cakes. He cooks, he's a chef, he's a welder. He digs holes that people could fall in on the beach in Florida. Anyway, so he needs to get his hands on the world to make it a better place. So those are the four modes.

Thank you. And one of the things I've forgotten, this part you remind me is the way worded is the need for. And that really is because when you say quick start and you start telling, I literally go, weed. I have an eight quick start. I need change, I need risk. I tell my wife sometimes it sounds like my dad whenever my mom would get mad about something he did with the business or something. Here we go. And he's from the island. He has his accent. He'd go. I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't fool around. And there's like this thing, like, I'm sorry, I did something stupid. And I said to my wife something similar like, well, look, I said I'm faithful to you. We used to move back and forth to Peru and to Florida, but right now we're staying here because the kids are here, same job. I need to make stupid decisions and take risks somewhere. Now, she's since learned, she's like, great, do it with your time, not our money. Okay, then. But she's learned that, okay, now I'm going to do I need some change. I need variety. And jokes aside, I'm committed to my family.

I'm not going anywhere with my wife. I'm not going to wear leaving my kids. I'm not traveling the country. I do need some variety, something different and even more so, and this is not to judge because I love watching a great movie or whatever, but I more than just need it given to me. I need to author it in some way. Even if it doesn't go anywhere, even if it doesn't, it's like a compulsion. Somebody might say Wayne Dyer would say selfactualizing people he was quoting Mazda said, self actualizing people must be what they can be. And I used to think that was like a hierarchical thing, like, well, you must be the best. And I've realized more notes. No, I just must be a guy that does certain things and create certain things, even if it's just for me, even if it's sitting on my computer and never gets anywhere. Because when I don't, I'm not a happy person. I don't know how to explain that. You can feel it, but I know it's true. I know it's true.

Yes. So how do you get variety now? How do you do that for yourself?

So, for me, podcast interviews is one place because I'm meeting different people, I'm learning different things. And actually, it's almost so specific because I love variety, but I'm not a reader specifically books, and I'm decent on the fact finding some, but I don't like physically reading.

No, I don't either. I agree with you.

I like the audiobook, right. I like the movie. I like the conversation. But I most like the conversation because I don't know where the conversation is going to go. And there's nothing like crazy risky. It's not like we're going to found a billion dollar company today on a podcast interview or we're going to have or mess up the state of the world. But there's newness, there's possibilities. So for me, that is huge. In my case, I think I've done a pretty good job at this. I hesitate to say, well, it's worked for me. The part of my business that is repetitive at times, when my business was bigger, I had a team member that helped me with that. When I went into sort of lifestyle solopreneur dad mode of I want to make sure I have as much time for my kids and my wife, it was, okay, well, I don't want to be spending as much time stirring up business to then hire the extra person. So if I have to do a little follow through work that I don't love, but it means I can get more creative time, like, that's my measure, if I get more creative time.

So it's not even like I need more SaaS time. I don't particularly love or not love selling. I love creating. In the process of me creating, you're going to buy something for me, flipping awesome, right? But so for me, that's what I look at, and even I track my time. I've got quite a bit of that left brain, whatever you want to call it, detail, obsession, I'm sometimes told or whatever. But it's like I'm studying myself to say, okay, where did I do things? But I don't. I'm not playing the game to maximize my income, and it's not me being better again. That's not my main thing.

I've heard you're maximizing your energy, Wade.

I maximize my energy, my foot. I get to play. I'm blessed, and this is the part I choose. I get to choose, and this is the part that I feel very blessed with and very humble and almost guilty at times. I think of what Dan Sullivan said about entrepreneurs want freedom. He told freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom, freedom. Time, relationship, money, all these different things. I'm blessed in the sense that I was born in a place and raised by film and stayed together. You look around the world, things could be very different. But what I've learned, I think, is that I enjoy the ride. And I'm finding many people that to me, that seems so natural, that seems so easy. Of course you enjoy the ride. Why wouldn't you? Who would put up with not enjoying the ride? And yet I see many people who don't. And so that's where I realized that that's something that some people would call a superpower, a level of genius or talent or whatever it is, where when I can help other people do that, that's when I'm most valuable. So even though, to your point, it feels not wishy wash, it feels amorphous, it feels almost coloring outside the lines, almost borderline irresponsible.

And yet, if I were to talk to most people that have said that are my clients that really love most what I do, they would say, wait, you gave me permission to let go of some of the constraints, to loosen up a little bit, to enjoy life more, to put my life before my work. And that's the gift that somehow I'm able to give. And I now I look at, okay, how can I help more people with that? So it's the same way you're giving people like a self knowledge and know thyself. For me, it's like almost a liberate yourself kind of a thing and give yourself permission not in any crazy way, not leave your family and go join the circus kind of stuff. If that's what they need to do, that's for them. I don't tell people to leave their family and join the circus, but just that sense of, okay, are you getting to do the time or getting to do the things you want to do? Are you spending time with the people you most enjoy? Are you getting to do the work you love? It might have to be a hobby.

If you socket monetizing it, it might have to be a hobby, but please do it. I never monetize beach volleyball in a huge way, but I'm at the beach every Friday. I stopped for six or seven years when our kids when our first son was born, and because I thought that would make me a better dad, to just focus in on my family and be overpresent with just my wife and my son. Almost 24/7. Other than work, yeah, that's a real great relationship plan, by the way.

How long does that last?

Well, it took me about we were moving back and forth to Peru for the first five years of that. So that created, I think that allowed things to be easier. And then once we get out of that, I've done my least proud moments as a father or as a husband during that time when I wasn't giving myself the volume, I've said the things I'd say. I shouldn't have said that because I wasn't giving myself whatever that needed. That my beach Vols for me, the social, the physical, the athletics, the competition. So then it became the kid's fault, it's the wife's fault, life's too hard. Just the seriousness came on with it. So when I was able to give myself the other and allow myself to play more, then it's been easier and yet still make sure I budget and make sure I can pay the bills. So there's still I think this is the other part. People say, oh, well, if you become a high quick starter, you just go off into the ether and you just play like, no, I still got bills to pay. I've got to make sure I do that.

Do you know your most productive 4 hours in the day?

My most productive 4 hours in the day? When I get the sleep I need, it depends. If I get not so good sleep, they are from about four to eight in the morning. That's not what I want them, because then usually the rest of my day, I kind of almost crash or I'm not as productive when I get to sleep, I want it. It is pretty much 730 to 1130, like, earlier in the day.

Right. So that, you know, so that's not being irresponsible. Like you're using your strengths to your advantage. That's what I call that. And the other thing that I noticed you're doing, kathy Colby has a rule of following your gut do nothing when nothing works and energy is finite, meaning it's depleted. It goes away. At the end of the day, we are rung out. Right. So when you get that feeling you're like I'm just done. No judgment on when by the way. Sometimes that happens for me at 200 in the afternoon. When you get that feeling of being wrong out, the goal is to stop and turn off your brain and go play volleyball and watch a movie. Some of my busiest moments have been most productive. When I've done nothing, if someone asks me for a decision and my mind is fragmented, I will watch a movie. I don't care what time of day and when I'm done watching the movie, I'll have the answer because I gave my mind a rest. Isn't it great and amazing that people the productivity will increase the more you do nothing? Because cognitive energy is like fat and soup.

It will rise all the time. When you give yourself rest and you're able to do it like when you give yourself rest, cognitive energy will rise. And I ask people, entrepreneurs, especially high achievers, bet me, prove me wrong in this. Prove me wrong. Prove me wrong. If you can't get it done in 6 hours, prove me wrong. They're like, oh my gosh, yes, I'm serious. Prove me wrong. Tell me you know what, Gail, that did not have that wasn't true. So I'm glad to see, you know, when your energy is done and when you turn it off. Because the more you do that, the more money you'll make.

Yeah, that has been such something that I've tried to explain to people and I've also tried to learn it for myself because I've been fortunate to learn from a lot of great mentors, dan Sullivan being one of them. He's awesome and he's good enough that I trust him. But then there's a certain level where you experience something to where the point that you could actually teach it because you kind of have a mastery over it. And what I found is whenever my business would be lacking in something cash flow and it always would come back to confidence. He always talked about that your confidence is your most important aspect as an entrepreneur, possibly even as a person. But then I would get frenetic like, okay, I've got to be doing something. Which of course is the worst thing. It's the athlete that's about to have the big game in three days and they're injured and they need a rest. But no, they're going to go work out and do two days for the next three days. It's just a train wreck. And we wouldn't do that physically, by the way. We know that somehow. True, we understand with athletes, but with our mind we think we can because the five hour energy drink can trick our brain or keep our eyes open, but not our functioning high.

Right.

We do that. But I love what you just said there because one of the things I finally given myself permission to do in the last probably year and a half, actually, during the Coba time was, okay, it's the middle of the day. I just need a bike ride. And we have a little nature preserved thing. And the word is need, and it's not need in the sense if I'm going to die. So I don't want to get first world problem this year, but if I want to be productive, I'm blocked, I'm stuck, whatever word you want to come at. And there's all these different there's the Pomodoro method of 55 or 50 ish minutes of work and then five to ten minutes of rest. There's all these different things that come at it and come to the same conclusion in a different way, that more is not better. And so for me, that's something that I try to help people. And I just really love the way you said that. I'm asking you to actually say that again a different way because I'm going to role play a little bit here. Okay. So, gail. I don't believe you.

I believe in hard work. You're telling me this isn't about hard work? I believe that things are supposed to be done a certain way. I believe that you get done by more being done. Why would me stopping working, how is that going to help me get more results? And I'm sure you've had this question before in some way where people kind of challenge you with that or maybe let me change the total bit. I want to understand Gail, but I just don't see it. It doesn't make sense to me. I want to learn. I may change the roles here. I want to learn it, but I don't see it. How would you help that person see it or explain it a little more? Perhaps detail?

Two things. I first would talk to you regarding your Mo, the way that you work. That's how I'm going to address this problem, depending on how you initiate action or if you're a mediator, is how I will address the problem. For sure. I would say you don't have to believe me at all. You can try it. There's a parameter on it. Try it for a week, see how it feels. Try it on. It's not a permanent issue. I want you to give it a whirl. I want you to give it a try. And I know you like to experiment and see what works and what doesn't work. I know you need to experiment. I know you need to experiment. I know you need to push things, go in a different direction. So I bet you can't do this for a week.

Love that. Okay. Yes. And this is the part. Gosh, it's so funny because my dad, he's such a high performer, and his whole motto is telling me I can't do it. Just prove to me. Tell me I can't do it. And he's a seven. Quick start yeah, tell me I can't do it. So then that then comes into also the coaching part. I know, as I told the beginning interview, I know you and I are going to not get this done in a short period of time. Then when you're coaching somebody, you just hit on something, knowing their Mo was so different. Okay, so let's talk about your son. How would you explain your son says, okay, I don't believe you. This is illogical. I don't get the process. How do you explain to somebody who's a high follow through that needs systems, that needs order? How do you explain them? Because you spoke to who I am. You said, okay, risk experiment, try even dug my ego a little bit. Like, okay, I bet you can't. How would you do that with somebody that is saying, no, I need systems, I need logic. I need some sort of sequence that.

Feels rational for do nothing when nothing works.

Yeah.

So he has a one in quick start, and he is an eight in follow through. So his focus is like this, like super focused. Right. And the bigger the number and quick start, the more natural it is for us to see the big picture. So he already comes to me if he's in the weeds with the big picture, thinking so he is using those around him to fill in the gaps with what is not his natural ability because he knows that it's my natural ability, I encourage him to take time out and take time off. And when I see him and I ask him to notice so when he's working and he's in school and he comes home and he's a vegetable in the morning, and I'll say, you've been working for the last five days after school, how is that serving you? Where is your downtime? And then he'll notice his grades might start to slip because of the lack of downtime. And it all boils down to a choice, Wade. It all boils down to a choice. So as a mom, I will suggest that you will be more productive when you have more time to do nothing and get more sleep.

And sometimes he does that and sometimes he doesn't. But the point is that he notices what happens when he does and when he doesn't. And then he gets to decide because he's seen both sides.

That's awesome. Yeah. I think of one of the things I've been I'm always carefully use the word learning because it assumes I'm right, but it's serving me as this style of parenting. And our kids are 16 and 13, so it definitely is necessary a lot of times to just kind of let them more inform them, hopefully as best I can. So I'm going to do my best to inform you of the choice and what naturally comes with it. And of course, I shouldn't say of course, but I'm learning to even explain less and less, or say, well, what do you think comes with that? And then put the choice to them. Because at least at their ages, it's not that I feel we're done raising them, but I feel we're definitely past that page at the stage of them wanting to be raised by us. So I think Maria Montessori talked about dormant stages and active stages of when kids taking information. And I remember, I think it was her that talked about the idea that when a kid hits about twelve, they've looked inside the household enough for information, and now they're looking out everything that's outside is better.

Johnny's, Mommy knows more than you do, the coach knows more than you do. I don't care what sport you played, I don't care who you are. I remember hearing about Joe Montana's son telling him that the high school coach said, here's how we should throw football. And Joe just laughed. And I'm sure the coach was probably embarrassed, like, no, dude, listen to your father, because he's Joe Montana. But I just see that ability of respecting that and I guess kind of trusting the process enough. And yet I do feel when I bring this back to even the workplace. I feel like when I know somebody's. Colby. When I know and also their tendencies. Who they are. What they like. I've taken the time to genuinely get to know what they're about. That then I can make more informed decisions and give that sort of freedom or that latitude respectfully. As opposed to where were you? What happened? Because also, if I'm coaching them well, I'm a lot more confident that they probably did make a good decision. I might not understand what they did. So it really is more of that, hey, how did that turn out?

As opposed to what the f? Why was this, why was that? And certainly that I watch our kids when either my wife or I approaches with that borderline accusatory what were you doing approach. And for whatever reason, I've learned with employees, that completely doesn't work. I don't know if it's because it's money involved, because I know I can't do much. That's right. Because I can fire employees. That's right, because you can't fire you can't. But that's not one of our options at the moment.

Right.

If the employee doesn't get it after a while, it's like, okay, we just need to kind of do that. Wow, there's just so much this and I encourage people, if you've not to take the Kolbe A index, it's K O Lbe.com, and we'll put the links and stuff below. Because I just find that I think you and I have touched on this different ways that when it's ignored, it just seems to almost come up in different ways. What have you seen? What's the most common things that happen when somebody is either completely unaware of or ignoring their mo, their mode of how they handle things?

You talked about this at the top of the show, too. When they're trying to be something they're not or they're going against the grain, there's a lot of pain. There's a ton of pain that goes into that that can lead to health problems and strokes and heart attacks and relationship issues. When people descend their way of working on someone else, that's where the hardship happens. Every single being on this planet is capable of solving problems their way. When we know that they are capable, we can release our hands off the grip of the how and allow them their greatest contribution to the world and not get in the way of that. That is a beautiful opportunity that we have.

Wow, that's so cool. Because I see that I think of a big fan of Carl Rogers work, the psychologist, and he had that idea that people can figure out their own things. They just need he called it active feedback and unconditional positive regard, kind of like unconditional love. And it was that idea of creating this environment. And of course, when that can be done in a work situation, it's so much more powerful. So last thought. I'm curious, if you just paint a picture, the difference between, let's say, a team of five to ten people, the difference between what you see it looks like the before and after. When a business owner or somebody comes to you, and the owner and the team are not as aware of how they work together and what it looks like, what's that after look like, because a lot of people think it's only the business owner or the boss that benefits from it, or it's only the bottom line. And I know I've seen that it's much more than that, but I think you've seen more than I have, for sure. What would you say is that difference between the before and the after?

When a team knows this about themselves, first of all, it's jaw dropping because they're hearing like you and I did for the first time, that the way we are is perfect. There are no holes. There are no voids. So when they know that for the first time, then they get to start to practice it, they accept it. And when they accept their way of working and they're trying it on for the first time, and they're practicing communicating this with others, and others on the team are communicating with them. And there's no good or bad, right or wrong. There is a reverence for the way people produce. There is a palpable reverence. And if people aren't in their appropriate positions, I've seen them barter with other employees. Hey, it looks like and I heard you say that you really need this, and I really need this. Can we trade cognitive requirements? And they're like, yeah, let's do that. So without the manager or boss interfering in a classroom, in a family, in a team setting, the team will produce they will produce with less energy and less effort because they're standing and they're operating in the way they do things best.

That's what I've seen.

That's awesome. And I just think it's something that it just seems to release a lot of the stress, a lot of the problems. It seems to take away the need for hustle or striving or pushing. And to be really clear to me, the over sidehustle, I'm all about the hard work you need. I mean, it takes work to get results. You and I both know that you didn't get to where you are by sitting around and yet at the same time I think about there's two authors I've listened to a lot on this. Deepak Chopra and Stuart Wade. The difference between effort and struggle and yes. It takes effort. But there doesn't have to be struggle is almost there and I think the struggle being effort laced with negative emotion like this. Why? As opposed to, yeah, it's going to take effort if you want to be in the best at something or do something, you want to be Stefan Curry or you want to be Michael Phelps or you want to be a great singer, you want to be Celine Dion. Yeah, it didn't just happen, but it doesn't have to be struggle. Maybe kind of as the last thought.

What would you say for an individual? Let's go back to you. What would you say was that difference of how it felt for you to get to be doing things that are in alignment with what you do and how does it feel now when you're getting to do like, the work you do, that you get to do what you do versus when you weren't doing that?

Make no mistake, I am learning all the time. It's not like I have this licked and I am successful forever more so. I was just in an entrepreneur workshop mastermind and there were 15 other very successful business owners that suggested I solve this particular problem one way and they were emphatic about it and they're all extremely successful. And for the first time ever, I sat in my car and I put my hands on the steering wheel and I rolled what they were saying through my mo, through my barometer and my answer was, no, that this is not in alignment with how I work. I'm going to do it my way and I'm in a safe place with this group because I need to fail to learn how to do it again another way. And so that's what I did, that's what I decided to do. There are tips and tricks of how I work that I've used that work for me, and I don't try and make it something it's not. But when I am creating or putting forth more effort like that struggle that you talked about, I have been assured by my family into my room for some quiet time because I.

Am not a pleasant person if I have to deal with the CRM system for 7 hours a day, like I am not a pleasant person. And should I have stopped? Absolutely. Did. I know what I was doing. Absolutely. And I chose to do it anyway. And that was the outcome. The awareness of when I am giving someone the first piece of the pie, which is the best piece, that corner that point. And when I'm not, I would say that knowing this about myself, wade has created an awareness. And every day it's a practice and I keep practicing being in my lane and doing what I do best, my way. Because that's how I will be most successful.

Yeah, I think that's the thing. I remember once I was in a relationship and it wasn't a toxic relationship, just wasn't going where I was hoping it would. And my father was like, he's like, why don't this, why don't you that I'm like and I just told him, gosh, it was early twenties. Like, dad, I just haven't learned what I need to learn. Apparently. I said apparently because I'm still here. I said, I don't know why, but to your point, I did it my way. I was open. It wasn't like dogmatic. It was like I'm still going to do it my way. I'm going to be open for information and keep my eyes open. But then I eventually learned what I needed to learn. And I think that's the thing. It's kind of like the whole fishing versus teaching someone to fish. If you give me a line for my word track or you give me a script for my sales page and it sells something, but I have no idea what that meant. Now the sales comes in and I don't even know what I'm delivering.

One more thing I wanted to bring.

Sure.

I have an analogy, like a balloon analogy with employees and people when they're full. Like picture balloon that's very tight, full of confetti and it's floating down, floating down to the earth. And as business owners, as parents, sometimes in all a lot, we want to reach out and we want to protect that balloon from falling or hitting the ground and popping. But it's only when the balloon pops that we see what's inside. We see what is inside. All of the color, all of the beauty. And that popping involves some pain. So as a parent and a business owner and when we see people struggle based on how you work, I ask questions. So if I see my two sons struggling and I so badly want to take them out of it, right, but I'll say with their mo to Noah, I'll say, what's your plan B? I can see that plan A didn't work for you, but I know you're going to come up with another plan. And I know that if that plan doesn't work, you're going to come up with another one because that's how you do things. And with my other son, I will say, hey, you know what?

What did you learn and when are you going to get back up? You got to get back up yesterday and keep going. So encouraging and being able to do that with people, because when there's motivation, Wade, if you and I both want to get to the store and one person skips and one person hops, we both get to the store. So what difference does it make the way that we get there? It doesn't.

Wow. That's so awesome. Thank you so much. So, just to let you know, first of all, we're going to have all the links for all this below. Where can people get to learn more about your work and where can people learn more about the Colby?

Absolutely. Gail at plans to prorosper.com is my email and there's a website, Plans to prospercoaching.com and that you can also go, like you said, to Colby.com. And I would say those are the best ways to learn more about it.

Awesome. Thank you so much. And for the users, the listeners, I almost offered my apology. Sorry if we geeked out a little too much or I went too deep into my stuff. You got to look over our shoulder a little bit. I've worked with the Colby for years, and when Gail and I did the pre interview, we probably should have recorded that, too. You're right, because there was just so much and it really is solid work. And again, it's not witchcraft. There are definitely other variables. It doesn't guarantee a person's success, but there's so much depth to it. So I wanted to make sure you only got a chance to listen. So, again, Gail, thank you for joining us for every listing. As always, I look forward to helping you impact more people and make more money in less time doing what you do best so you can better enjoy your family, your friends and your life. Thanks for listening.