169. Unhustle to Create Sustainable Life, Work, and Play with Milena Regos

If you spend 90 minutes each day doing the most important thing you have to do, which you already know what it is that you're always pushing it at the end of the

I'm really excited to have Milena Regos with us to talk about why Unhustle is the way to creating sustainable live work and play design in life. She has a very unique perspective. She's living this and really excited to have her here. Thanks so much for joining us today, Melina.

Thanks for having me. I'm in between packing bags to move to Baja full time. So, yeah, I am living it nice.

Yes. Moving from Lake Tahoe to Baja, somebody's got to do it, right.

Somebody's got to do it.

Awesome. Milano is an international speaker, founder of Unhustle, and an ex, award winning marketer. She's on a mission to inspire people to a new way to live, work and play for sustainable success without sacrifices. She also hosts the Unhustle podcast. So maybe to start out, would you just share a little bit about your journey, what worked, the successes, and then what got you to shift because you were going one direction and then you chose to make kind of a switch? How did that play out? And share a little bit about that, if you don't mind.

Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to. I'm originally from Bulgaria and I came to the US by myself. First generation immigrant, two bags of clothes. And now I'm looking around the house and seeing how much more we've accumulated in 25 years. And I came to chase the American dream. I did an MBA in international marketing in San Diego, came to Lake Tahoe, really to work in the media company. In the early online marketing days, pre.com started doing online marketing in media, had to spell Google to people at parties. It was pretty fun these days of the wild, wild west in online marketing. And then I ended up working at the marketing resort for ten years. I got paid to ski and market, which was a big bucket list dream job of mine. Eventually I got tired of the bureaucracy and the meetings and they really can we swear on this Podfest?

I try not to.

Okay.

But yeah, just because I know some people don't take to it, I can't honestly say that I've got a non explicit mouth. But at least for podcast sake, I do my best.

I'll try to keep it clean. English is the second language. It's easier. So anyway, I got tired of the bureaucracy and certain tendency in this organization. And so I started my own marketing agency, really, which exploded really quickly. Social media, Jas, Takhar off. I grew a team. I built it to an eight figure business. I had phenomenal clients that I had a chance to work with. Celebrities like Madonna and Steve Nash. Doctor Wild. Very focused in the health and wellness area. Travel and recreation. The things I enjoy doing so still very aligned with my values. But I was working 18. Nowadays, my health started to deteriorate. I was sleeping with my phone. I never had time for my husband, never had time for my friends. So even though I loved what I was doing, I wasn't happy. I wasn't satisfied. On the inside. I was pursuing this outer success, this material success. Constantly go, constantly chasing goals. The go always moves. You continue to chase it. You end up buying shoes and bags and perfumes. But that's just a momentary joy. As we know, experiences matter so much more. But I haven't taken a vacation in three years.

So we finally decided to go to Baja California, sir, which turned out to be a ten day digital detox trip by default, not by design. There was just no internet where we went and we decided to learn to kiteboard. Now kiteboarding, turns out, is a very dangerous activity. And for the very first time, I don't know how many years. With all the yoga training I was doing and meditation and all of this, I couldn't stop thinking about work. I couldn't mentally detach from work. But it was really in the middle of the Sea of Cortez with the ocean around me that I realized I have to focus 100% in turn to this very mindful activity. Eventually, after I got past the struggle stage, I got into a state of the flow and I realized the way I'm working is not right. My parents had passed away earlier, so it was right in my face. Life is too short. Anyway, we came back to the States. We decided to really redesign our life. We started spending more time down in Baja. A little bit of time, more time in seven months, seven, eight months in Tahoe, four months in Baha.

And I started to think back to really my birthms, my sleep. I realized that the less I was working, the more I was making. I let go of my team and my office and all of a sudden things started to click for me and I started doing all this research on how is this even possible? That when you do less, you can actually get more done? And ended up with things like more mindful living and more mindfulness work. Ended up finding the science flow and Hussle was born of my desire to have bigger purpose and bigger contribution to the world than sending people Facebook ads and creating something that is very needed and extremely relevant. Now I set it up before the pandemic hit. All of a sudden with the pandemic, there's just an explosion of people talking about burnout and stress relief and all these other things. And I'm seeing more and more entrepreneurs talking about flow state and living more aligned with energy. I just saw a post on LinkedIn today from an entrepreneur and a founder who basically said, Love what I do. I'm very good at what I'm doing. I've been working really hard to build my dream for the past ten years.

I'm going to take a sabbatical of five months, six months so I can be with my family so I can strategically think about what I want to do and grow my business. And I'm saying sabbaticals are great, but maybe you don't need a sabbatical. Maybe you can continue to do what you're doing and fit your work into your life instead of the other way around.

Absolutely.

There's so many things there.

One of the things that I was blessed to watch when my father grew his business and he's still in business, but as he sort of went through a very big growth stage, I watched some of his friends and how it impacted their lives. This whole idea that money is usually a multiplier, it just amplifies whatever's going on. If they're happy, then they have cooler toys and they're happy. If they're not happy, well, that usually doesn't pan out too well. And one of the things that I think people see is they think when they make enough, they're going to get to this point where they'll be happy and this and that and all that other good stuff. And I always find it interesting when people who have reached what they thought was their goal and then they had to shift that. You mentioned some of the people you've worked with, the level of the people you've worked with, and that you too reach that. How can a person start looking at this without having to do it's? That whole thing that I had to be a really bad sinner before I became a Saint journey. How can the person not have to go through the whole the thing?

That's just such a typical story when I got burned out. How can a person start today? Perhaps because the reason I asked this is because a lot of people will say, oh, well, see, when you made your money and then you had all this money, then you decided you could relax. I can't do that because I still have to hustle right now. I still have to pay bills. So maybe if you get a little more specific and I know, you know this part for the person that's thinking, okay, I'd love to do that, but I'm seeing either an on switch or an off switch and I need to find an in between because if I turn it off, my business will go away. I'm a solar printer or the business is very dependent upon me. How can somebody first even just realize that maybe they need to consider this and then what can they start doing to start moving that direction that's safe, that's not irresponsible or not going to cost them necessarily hugely because they took too big of a knee jerk reaction.

Yeah, that's a great question. I don't advocate for not working. I don't advocate for not making money by any means. I advocate for making money in a sustainable way and supporting your lifestyle and deciding what your lifestyle wants to be. I've had the extreme privilege, I understand, to live at a very posh place in Lake Tahoe. I've seen a lot of millionaires and billionaires. You could have the mindset that it's never enough and you don't have enough regardless of how much money you have. So the question becomes what's realistic and what is out of a desire of competing with the Johnson or just wanting more stuff? Just desires for more stuff. Because when you look at the research and this is what I did and this is what people can do as well, and this is where in the unhappy framework I talk about, the first step is unlearn, right? Unlearning all this programming, unlearning all the beliefs of what success is, unlearning all of the toxic work habits that are so ingrained in us that going to Protestant work ethic and Henry Ford 40 hours work week. We're now seeing whole countries going to a four day work week and being more productive, having more time for wellbeing, so less work is more productive.

And that's all the research that I've seen. It's so ingrained in us. I was going to say something, but hassle influencers and business leaders is making it cool. If your startup founder, it's cool to burn the midnight oil. I no longer work in the evenings. I have a clear cut off day for my work day. I probably don't work more than, to be honest with you, 6 hours a day and I'm getting so much more done, which also leads to more money. Right. So it's a different way of working. It's a different way of controlling your attention. But the very first thing to your point of how does somebody start is look at the science, look at the data. Everything I do is science based. And so there's so much research that executives by McKinsey, let's say executives who work in a state of flow are 500% more productive. You can't work in a state of flow if you sleep deprived and exhausted and stressed out. Right? So feeling your best and performing your best is a different way. It's the opposite of hustling. Because when you hustle all the time and you're chasing your tail all the time and you're on this hedonic treadmill of more and more, which is by the science of well being.

Yale studies, they showed how money makes you happy, but it's a temporary joy. In reality, what we crave is experiences and relationships and all these things that we put on the back burner and the unhustle is not a luxury. It's actually you have to unhustle to move forward. And that's such a mindset shift for people to understand.

Yeah. One of the things that's interesting to.

Me, and I forget where I heard this from, but one of the books I read, the person talked about if you were an athlete and the big Championship game were coming up in a week and let's say you've been a little tired and maybe you were yet an injury that was kind of bugging you a little bit. You wouldn't go out and work out every day before the Championship. You'd actually rest. Why? So you could be at your best and perform at the highest. And so we see this in sports. We know that physically that people need rest, and yet we try to convince ourselves that we don't need mental rest. And yet we all know people. They're saying that a kid needs a nap. And we certainly know that in any business, employee turnover is one of the biggest costs. And if you have a short term view, yes, you'll go through employees and you'll be mean to them and you'll overwork them, and then you'll keep turning them over. And then you find yourself always training and you can never really grow your business because you're always just trying to get back to where you were six months ago.

Whereas if you can keep an employee or a client for 20 years, wow. Then there's some real economies there. And how do you do that? So much of this, like you said, I think it's unlearning something that I guess it's just the glorification, like you said of the hard work. And at times one guy said a different way. He said, look, if it takes you twice as long to do something as somebody else, maybe you're just stupid, maybe you're just bad at it, maybe you can delegate it.

There's a lot of things, right. A lot of things we can do and a lot of things we don't have to do. I just posted a social media post. A lot of people really loved it. And basically it was really simple, but it was one big box of everything we think we need to get done. A much smaller box what's realistic to get done and a tiny little box of what really matters to get done. The only way I was able to understand this is when I was working in Fanbaja very limited Internet, and I had very limited time to get work done. So you really quickly learn to prioritize what's going to keep me afloat. What is the work that's going to generate the most money. What's going to move my business forward? Everything else, all the distractions, all the little short term dopamine hits, all the social media stuff that we do and spend hours in all the sum becomes irrelevant. Now, here's a little research that I want to share with your audience. I think they'll find it useful because whoever I share it with, they go, I've never thought about this way going back to the science of flow.

Now, flow is a concept coined by a Hungarian American psychologist, and I'm going to try to pronounce his name. Right. I'm Bulgarian, so it should be fairly easy, but not so. His name is Mihali, and he developed the theory of law. Basically, you're talking about high performance athletes, that's when you're in the zone, time slows down or speeds up, you're fully focused, fully engaged with the activity at hand. You forget about everything else, which is what happened to me when I went kiteboarding. Right. You could be skiing, mountain biking, a lot of sports activities that challenge you, drive you. There also a lot of work because it's challenging or creative can drive you there. Musicians and performance can get into that state. Now, he's also proven that a flow state is very beneficial for our well being, for our fulfillment. Right. We want to be in flow so you don't have to be doing something super challenging. You could be walking around in nature without your phone and engaging all of your senses or reading a book. Right. Now, here's what the research says as to why we're addicted to work, which I find fascinating.

He found out that when we're working because we're challenged and we have our to do list and we have big projects and we feel accomplished and we're checking off our tasks and we feel good about it, we end up being in flow about 64% of the time for people who use their minds for work. When we're in our leisure time, we're normally doing passive leisure, couch surfing, Netflix surfing, social media crawling, all of that stuff. We end up in flow only 20% of the time. So the paradox of work and leisure is that even though people say that rather not be working, our leisure time really is broken. And so we end up it's a natural tendency. Look at what happened in the pandemic. We worked three extra hours every day because we didn't want to deal with the negative news and distress and dealing with the kids and running the errands. So we feel safe and secure and we feel good about getting our work done. So that paradox, if you figure out a way to fix or redesign your playtime, your off time, which is where probably a lot of the work you do is how do you increase your playtime?

How do you increase the difficulty adventures, which is kind of why I'm moving to Baja, to be honest with you, because I have more play activities down there. And then, of course, flow drives more flaw, which means it's easier to work effortlessly and focus and get your work done in less time. And a lot of people say they've never heard of that concept before. I find that it's very useful. What do you think?

Yeah, I think there's so much to that.

First of all, I remember when I was speaking to a bunch of executives about a program that was for the people that their sales associates. And it was about I was proposing, hey, I'm going to show you how they can make more money in less time so that they can take Fridays off. Now, the executives weren't crazy about this. This is about 15 years ago. And they said, you know what? Because we want them working more because the assumption was more work. I've even heard some people say, well, it's obvious if you work more, you get more done. I guess they've never supervised people. But what was interesting is then one of the executives said, well, you know what? One of the sales people in my team recently had a family emergency come up. She had to cut her hours to about 15 hours a week. And she had her best year ever. And this is kind of like what Tim Ferriss says in his book The Four Hour Work Week. What if you had a heart attack and you could only work 4 hours a day? And he said, what if you could only work 4 hours a week?

What would you do? That same thing like your boxes.

Like what's?

That absolute essential thing. And it forces creativity. And it's not easy, as you know. It's so much easier. It's more comfortable to get the checking off the list a little dopamine, hey, I got something done, even if it's not social media, even if it's what feels like work. But then you look at, okay, did it move the needle or like, I like editing my podcast stuff. I shouldn't be editing my podcast. I should get somebody else. But I like it.

I like the creative piece.

I like the pretty colors, but it's like, no, once I've decided what clips I'm going to take, I shouldn't. And sometimes it feels easier to just, oh, well, I'll just do that. When the other part that people miss, I'd ask you to share about this is the opportunity cost is well, it's not that I'm missing out. I'm missing out on personal life experiences that I could be having because I should be delegating that and I could still make the money to afford to delegate it. But that three to 4 hours, like you mentioned, that was added on for a lot of people during the pandemic. He said, what did you lose? Well, I don't know, because it's kind of like when you're a coach and you say, well, I just saved you a bunch of money that you were going to miss out on well, I never saw the money. And you say, yeah, but I helped you not make a mistake. And so people are not, I don't think, realizing what they're missing out on. What do you see when you work with people, the people that are saying, well, no, but you don't understand, Melina.

I like working those five extra hours, those ten extra hours a week. I'm not missing out. What would you suggest to that person? How would you help them explore whether or not they might be missing out on something that maybe they're not aware of or they're not seeing? Because I think that's what's happening with a lot of people. That's what I see.

You know, to be honest with you, I don't know that I get a lot of people that say, what am I missing out on? I think people are pretty aware what they're missing out on. It's normally family time. It's normally fun. It's normally doing the things they enjoy doing but don't allow themselves to do. I think what we're dealing more so is the mindset of how do I not feel guilty or how do I not feel shame? Or how do I deal with unworthiness when I'm not working? Because work becomes their identity. Right. With so much of us who we are, it's the first question we ask in America, which I've tried really hard to stop asking that question. But what do you do for work? Or my other favorite, how are you? Busy. Great. That gives me chills, because busy is the new stupid, like Warren Buffett says. Right. So I do see people craving, especially in the pandemic, really was a big kind of slowing down and pausing and reprioritizing. So I do see a big move towards how do I bring more intention and purpose and joy in my life without sacrificing my financial goals?

And so there's that fear of if I'm not working, I'm not making money. And this is where the research helps a lot. And this is why I set up a community, because you can't just do this with an online program. Obviously, I coach some people, but it's really a mindset shift. The research there was a great research that showed how people working 80 hours a week don't get anything more than people working 50 hours a week. Now, I also believe that hard work is Noble and hard work is quite a part of building a meaningful and sustainable life. What I don't subscribe to is the whole notion of hustling, which I see far too much from a business and marketing perspective, when people are trying to compete in a sea of sameness. And so they end up competing on features and trying to outdo each other when in reality, these seven point 76. 5 billion people on the planet, we all have our unique gifts. What you and I are doing is fairly similar, completely probably different approach. I don't know exactly the details of what you do. We're going to attract different people. We're going to share different knowledge.

We're going to have completely, probably different way of doing it. And so why would I compete with people on the same concept and the same idea? I'd rather create a whole new, different category. And that's how I'm positioning on hassle as opposed to trying to compete with millions of people out there who talk, let's say, about burnout retention. We don't allow ourselves the time to really ask some difficult questions as to who we are, what are our superpowers, what makes us tick, what brings us joy and giving ourselves permission and empowering ourselves to really fully step into this.

Yeah, I think so much of this think it's so interesting. Number one, I think it's interesting that.

You were in Lake Tahoe and still needed to go somewhere else to get relaxation. People say, well, you were in Lake Tahoe. It must have been really simple and easy. The other thing I see is a lot of people seem to think that the hustling more is the path, not a path, it's the path. And I just remember when I used to coach my kids soccer teams when we were coaching, they started playing soccer at about four years old or football for the rest of the world. I remember I would see some of the parents really grateful that all the parents were coaching. I happened to have been raised by a father who played soccer. So I knew kind of the strategy of how to coach the kids and at least up to a certain age, and certainly at four, I knew what to tell them. And then you'd see some of the other parents that really didn't know the game. And the difference in the coaching that I saw was the parents that knew how to coach would be talking strategy to the kids or, hey, here's how you do this. And the parents that didn't know what to do, you'd hear them, run harder, try harder, go push.

It was genuine. There was nothing wrong. They weren't bad people, but they didn't know any other way. So their only answer was, well, run faster. I mean, as if that's the only answer. And if you play soccer, running faster isn't always the answer. And it's certainly not just running the whole time isn't the answer. You'll burn out. So I just find a lot of people instead of, like you say, doing the research, first of all, and being aware that there's research on this rather than assuming that what worked 30 years ago worked. But they're almost just sort of taking on an approach and saying, okay, I'm going to prove I'm right. And there's enough people. Like you said, you don't get to be at a top level without having hustled. But I know plenty of people who are really happy that don't make eight figures, that don't make seven figures, that don't even make six figures. They have a really happy life. It's not this all or nothing. It feels like there seems to be, at least from what I'm hearing from you, a lot of people, the fear of, again, if I let go of this or as if it's this whole thing I've worked my whole life, and if people catch me napping or resting, that, oh, gosh, my whole reputation is going to go away.

And maybe 20 years ago or 30 years ago, that was the case in the marketplace. I don't think that's the case today. How was it for you when you shifted you mentioned shifting from this sort of very busy situation where I'm assuming you did well because if you attracted the people you're talking about that you must have been doing well. What is that like? And what did you find on the other side of that that maybe people know they're missing out on, or what did you not realize perhaps, that you were missing out on that shifted as you changed your lifestyle?

Yeah, thanks for that. I mean, it's completely transformational mindset shift. I did a lot of research, and to be honest with you, all of that was not available 30 years ago. There's a lot of research coming from neuroscience that is pretty recent. Also, 30 years ago, we weren't dealing with information overload which we're completely dealing with right now. So I found out that habits change with identity. And to change your identity, I did an extensive mindfulness based stress reduction training, which really it was like somebody flipped the light switch in my brain and that was what really was able to help me shift my mindset around. Really, what brings you fulfillment at the end of the day? How by staying calm and non reactive, you make much better decisions. I also did an extensive human potential coaching program. And so being able to stay resilient, I'm starting a brand new business. And so is it challenging? Absolutely. But I just deal with the challenges slightly differently. I bounce back faster. I'm more aware when stress piles up. I know all the practice. I feel like we all know the practices. Right. Everybody knows they need to eat healthy, sleep more and exercise, but we just brush it off.

We make it lower on the priority list when in reality, I now know that the way I show up for my day, for my work, requires my full focus and retention in order to do so. I can't be on my computer till 02:00 A.m. In the morning because I'm going to have brain fog, I'm going to make mistakes. I'm not going to show up with my full energy, and people see that it resonates. I had a completely different podcast interview yesterday morning that I'm having with you today, and that's because I actually didn't sleep very well the night before because we have a lot going on at the moment. So taking control of your nervous system, taking control of your retention, rewiring your brain. It does take time, but it's completely possible. Most of us are living in some kind of scarcity mindset, going back to childhood traumas and whatever we have now. I'm a first generation immigrant. Right. I know that hard work is where we got me to build a lifestyle that I want. I have nothing against hard work. I don't believe in a four day work week. I do believe in sustainable and realistic live workplace design, where you're actually doing the work that matters and feeling good about it.

Generating the money. Hey, eight figure business, I think it's great. But you know what's cooler than an eight figure business? Having an eight figure business while you're surfing, while you're going skiing, while you're mountain biking and enjoying life. Because at the end of the day and I talk to a lot of people, older people, you know, going back to research from like, the fiber grades of the dying, I wish I had the courage to be myself. I wish I hadn't worked so much. I was just speaking with the billionaire yesterday. What regrets have you had since? We were looking at this photo of him in his early 20s with his three kids. And I said, Tell me about this photo he just described in vivid details. And I said, what regrets have you had since then? It all had to do with personal stuff. It all had to do with marriage. It all had to do with the kids. It had nothing to do with business. And I don't know, I think we're shifting. I think a collective shift is easier to do because when everybody around you is hustling and that's all you hear and that's all you see.

It's really hard on an individual level. But ask yourself, at the end of the day, what are you hustling for? Because the longest research, the 75 year old research on what makes people happy proves that it's at the end of the day, it's relationships, right? It's relationships. It's not the money in your bank account.

Yeah, that's the thing. It's funny. So we live in Naples, Florida.

It's a part of the world that is pretty blessed, pretty abundant, and certainly if you compare to the rest of the world overall, many people don't know that what six out of seven people on the planet live on less than $32 a day. And it doesn't necessarily mean they're poor because the economy might be different, but also how they spend their time. You'll find people in all areas that are happy and unhappy. And so sometimes when our kids are upset about something, they'll say, look, I'm not going to tell you there's anything wrong with money because money is awesome when you earn it well and you've done it in a way that's honorable and helping people. But if you think that more money or the next toy is what's keeping you from happiness that I'm going to challenge you on because there's people that have way less than you that are happy. And that's the part for me that I think there is that almost fight or flight survival thing. Like if I don't make six figures, 200,000, 300,000 or whatever it is, if I don't, well, my kids are not going to get in the right College.

All these different fears. And then you think back and say, well, did I have those things? No. And I'm okay. Or the parent that says I got to pay for my kids College education. So did you know I worked my way through College? Okay, I did. I was blessed to have my parents pay for it.

I had eight jobs while in College to pay for it.

Right? Well, that's what I'm saying. And I've met people in both ways. So people I think assume there's some causal link between one way of living or not. And I know people in every profession roughly that are nice and roughly in every profession that are not so nice. I know people are happy and sad. So I think we try to look for formulas. And I think that maybe is the tough part. When a person wants to start this, though, how would a person start what you call your own hustle journey? How would they begin their first steps to say, okay, I'm at least willing to try something different. And how can they perhaps do it in a way that's safe where they can say, okay, I'm going to kind of put my toe in the water here, but I'm not burning bridges or I'm not doing something that's irreversible.

Yeah. Let me just first say something earlier about what you were talking about, and then I'll answer your question. So the latest research shows that Americans are the most unhappiest they've been in 50 years. We work harder than a lot of, let's say, Western European countries, yet we produce less. So clearly what we are doing isn't working with regards to the money situation. I grew up in a Communist Bulgaria. Sometimes we didn't have anything to eat. I had the best childhood ever, thanks to my parents feeling safe and secure and going to the Black Sea and feeling free and walking barefoot and playing in the ocean and falling asleep under the stars. And I see people in Mexico who are way poorer than probably the people we are talking to who are very happy. So how does somebody start? Well, that's why I set up a community, because do we want to talk about the framework? I kind of identified seven different phases with the unhustle framework. And they all start with because I try to tie it into unhustle. But basically they unlearn and relearn unplug from technology and reconnect with yourself unthink and spend more time in your body because there's a lot of wisdom and intuition and hard power in your body unwinding and taking time for yourself with the unhustled morning practices.

Uncomplicating less is more right. Keeping things simple, simplifying as we are now still decluttering the house and removing stuff. And I'm realizing the more I remove the clear my mind is, the less stress I have, the more focus I have. Unbizing yourself. This is actually an experiment, how you can work less and get more done. And the ultimate phase, the 7th one, is unleashing human potential. And this is how you can increase creativity, mindful productivity, or state of flow. So you can actually exponentially increase your results. But you can't get to the 7th phase unless you do. The first 199 percent of the entrepreneurs I speak with are in the first phase of the shifting perspective, the mindset. That's where it all starts. If you don't believe it, you're not going to experiment with anything. So people can start by taking five minutes of time each morning. I can go over the UN hassle morning rituals, but at least five minutes. You don't have to meditate, but just sit with your thoughts. We're so disconnected from who we are, what we want and what our priorities are that we don't make time to think. And that time alone is the most important piece for entrepreneurs, for leaders, for anybody.

Without clarity, I see a lot of lack of clarity and lack of confidence and it parallels down as well into your employees and your teams. And that's what leads to hustle.

Yeah, I think there's so much that I think of.

Sometimes I'm a light sleeper and sometimes I'll Wade up and I'll have an idea and the idea will not leave me alone. And so sometimes I'm able to just write it down and go back to bed. Sometimes the idea is it's almost like it's dragging me. And so I'll come into my office, I work from home, and what will happen, I'll be very clear with that. For that, while I'll get those two or 3 hours, I don't get up every day at four or 05:00 A.m.. I know some people do that, but I'll get that benefit. So that maybe once a week or every two weeks I'll have that day where I got up at three in the morning or four in the morning and really nobody's bothering me. I knock something out. Great, awesome, really productive. And then of course the rest of the day I'm kind of surviving and whatnot. And then it's usually the day after that, then the sleep hangover kind of hits me and I'm not doing as well. And my goodness, I'm more fearful. I'm more willing to say I'm going to quit this. Why am I doing this?

Why am I bothering doing this? And this is the same person as 36 hours ago, 48 hours ago, same experience, everything. But I'm tired. There's a saying by one of the great NFL coaches, Vince Lombardi says Fatigue makes cowards of us. All and I'm just so everything just seems like not working. And like you said, whereas if I just take I usually try to do morning meditation or even if not even just two minutes, even three minutes, you say five minutes of just okay. And almost just confirming, yeah, life's okay. Life's good. I'm doing fine. What do I want to do today? And it seems woo, woo, it seems. Oh, come on, come on. I'm stronger than that. I've been doing this long enough and yet we're humans. It seems to be so necessary. And I just think that I just downloaded your book and started looking at it. I love the framework and the sequence which you're going because at least in my experience, definitely you're right for sure. If somebody's not even willing, they all want step seven, the productivity. I want that part. Yeah. But there's this other pieces together. I want the really happy marriage.

Oh. There's the part where you talk with your spouse and when they're mad, you sit and listen to them and you don't just think of what you're going to say next. You actually sit there and you listen and there's these different things that are different and almost counterintuitive, like you say to what we've been taught. So what do you see as what's changing now? You mentioned that I remember in the hustle was a dance. So the hustling used to be fun and then it turned into I'm hustling, I'm grinding. Where do you see it going next? You mentioned a consciousness shift. And I think definitely there's a lot of that going on and a lot of people are almost waiting. They're looking around for the person next to them. And once they do like, okay, I've been waiting to do this and now I'm going to do it. What do you see that's happening? And specifically with the clients you're working with? What are you seeing that they're doing and how's that playing out?

That's a great question. What I see is a lot of burnout, exhausted over achievers, talking about a different way of living and working. Very few actually practicing it, including the people in the space I'm in, especially the people in the space I'm in, which hurts even more because we actually have the awareness and the understanding. And I see a lot of HR people who are burned out, talent people who are burned out. I think burnout is a lot bigger problem than what we realize. I don't see well being programs at work is working. I do see burnout partly being an organizational and societal problem, not necessarily a personal problem. I see the future of work, though, being changed by the younger generation, the Gen Z and the millennials, who by the way, don't want the big house and all this stuff because they've seen their parents have that and they've seen their parents being miserable and stressed out and unfulfilled. So Jas Takhar new retention that new wave is coming in for employers as well as his employees. Things are going to change. They're going to dictate how, where and why work gets done. Look, the four day work week, I think it's a very honorable effort.

I don't necessarily think we need a law to trust people with the flexibility and autonomy to be creative. I mean, you can look at something like Patagonia, let my people go surfing. Hey, if the surf is up, go surf. Same principle. He knows they're going to be happy and fulfilled. He knows it's going to put them in the state of the flow. Then they're going to come back to the office and do their most creative and productive work ever. So many products are born out of time off from Google or from three M a law or a company effort to go on a four day workwick. Or can we tell people work when you must create in your case, when is your energy the highest? Right. Let's start looking into biometrics here. Let's start looking into things like Chronotypes, because when you're most productive. I experienced this with my team because most of them were remote and most of them were young. And some of them will tell me I'm the most productive at 02:00 a.m. Who am I to say, no, I don't trust you, that you're going to create an Instagram or Facebook page.

We need to stop measuring based on time and start measuring based on outcomes and results. And that takes a different kind of leadership and a different kind of managerial activity that we're not used to. We're used to being on the conveyor belt and we use our minds for work. And that's the biggest shift for people who use their minds for work. We need to start getting a much better understanding of how our minds work and how you can tap into the potential of your mind with things like mindfulness, with things like neuroscience, with things like flow state so that you're the only one that knows how your mind operates. I can throw a bunch of tools and strategies and tactics at you, but what works for me may not work for you. It's not a one thing fits all approach. So you have to experiment. You have to try different things and see what works. But I'm really excited because I do see a shift. I just coached like maybe 15 or 16 startup founders from Techstars. It was really interesting to me. And we did this short mentoring for Techstars. So these short little coaching sessions and they're going with investors and they're full on building something.

It's their dream. They believe in it. Two of them were from Latin America. Out of all 15, they were happy, smiling. They go, yeah, it's hard, it's challenging. We want to do a good job, but they had a fairly good time of practices as well. They're like our family matters. So we're going to spend some day with the family. Two of the American founders were completely burned out. One of them was like 23 years old. He's put himself in the hospital five times drinking monster energy drinks and not sleeping and not eating and not exercising, not doing anything. How is he going to ever build something that's creative and innovative? And this is the thing that I'm seeing, we're missing and what we need to focus on creativity and innovation, which again, that is not born sitting, staring at the screen. That's born when you actually go for a hike and disconnect and let the default mode network do its thing. So you can link concepts that you haven't thought about before. Like you said, you have your first idea when you first wake up that's completely understandable that's how it should work. Now you can either act on it, Journal about it, or sometimes the idea leaves you because you get on with your day and it could be the most brilliant idea you've had.

Right. So being more in tune, having more self awareness, listening more to what our intuition is telling us, and allowing other people the space to do their most productive creative work.

Yeah.

I think what's so interesting to me.

Is when I talk with people, there is this sort of fear actually to speak to a couple of things.

Yeah.

I definitely see where the intent behind wanting to have four day work weeks legislated. I don't think that's a good idea because I think businesses have to evolve to that and let the market do that. Anything that protects people from being abused. Sure. Anything that looks out for people of transparency, if you will, of seeing what's going on. But the business needs to be able to produce at a certain level. So to me, that's a slippery slope. I think you can aim toward and move towards and whatever your thing is, three day weekend, four day work week, five day week, whatever that works for you, as you mentioned. So that for me, first of all, I think that's a very important distinction. But when I look at people that I think of the concept of the teenage rebel and people say, I'm free, I'm a rebel. I said, no, if you're a real rebel, you're not free. Because the real hardcore rebels have to rebel. So if you give them something they want, I don't want that. Why? Because I'm a rebel. No matter what I get immature, like adolescent. It's like I rebel against everything.

Here's something you were like, no, what do you mean? You said you wanted this versus the first.

I say I'm a rebel too, and we have rebels in Unhussle U. So we rebel against unhustle culture and for well, being joined.

Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. It's like, what are you also for, though, if you're only just against something, it's kind of a tough thing. But what's interesting is I find the ones that are really just that rebel against the work life balance. What I found is a lot of them, sadly, do not have a very satisfying personal life. And they don't want to feel that. They don't want to acknowledge that. They don't want to come to terms with that. And so it's easier to stay busy. And this is not a judgment of somebody, somebody's listing saying, that sounds like me. Look, I know friends. I've done psychology work with a master's degree. I've done different things. And I've worked with people who've been traumatized in just about every way there is. There are defense mechanisms. We have to keep ourselves sane. I'm not in any way making light of that. And yet, is that how you want to live? And also, if you don't have the personal life that you'd like to have or the relationship, sometimes it's simply because literally you've made no time. It's not that necessarily nobody wants to hang out with you.

And to me, that's one of the actually saddest things. When you see these people that are so engaging, they build these awesome teams and they're doing this great cause and they're helping people and they're making money and they're making a difference. And yet in their own life, they're unable, like you said, to give themselves permission to allow themselves to enjoy the breath for a second and say, okay, what have I done? And how can I be present with that? And I so love you. Would you mind sharing just one more thing? The kite boarding. I know you and I talked about this in the pre interview about a lot of times people think, well, I'm going to do a relaxing thing, and that's going to be my relaxation. You mentioned how it's really calling you forth to actually be fully present. So it's not just you relaxing. For those of you who don't know, kite surfing, kite boarding, it's not sitting in a lounger chair. It's not sitting on a raft. And yet you said that that's something that energizes you and brings more. Would you share about that? Because that seems to be very much of a intense play aspect that seems to fuel everything that you're Robin, Waite.

I got a funny story we were just talking about with my husband. I was like, I got to remember to include this in the book that I'm writing about kiteboarding. So kiteboarding, as we said, it's a very dangerous activity. It requires your full concentration, full focus. Things happen really quickly and things can go really wrong really fast, so you can't be distracted. And it was in the very early stages when I was still learning. I went on the wall and there was no one else yet, and it was actually still pretty flat. So it was just me and my kite. And I started kying fully focused, and I looked down and I see this shadow in the water, and I thought it was a shark and I'm really scared of Shark Tank. I do my zigzags and the shark is following me. And somebody had told me they had seen Sharks early in the Bay and there's not that many Sharks there. But this is following me. And I got so scared that I dropped the kite and I fell. I dropped the kite and I was like, okay, this is your chance to come and eat me.

I'm sitting there and doesn't want to eat me. I'm sitting there, doesn't want to eat me. And I finally said, well, if you're not going to eat me, then I'm going to keep going. So I brought my kite back up and I started going and I looked down and I just said, I'm such a silly girl. It was the shadow of the kite following me around. And sometimes I feel like we're so scared about shadow and it's more uncomfortable to sit and do nothing than it is to do stuff. And we don't give ourselves a chance to ask some really poignant questions like, who am I really? What am I afraid of? Who do I want to be? What brings me joy, all these things now kindly to your point has turned into my favorite activity, still scares me to death. And I still do it. I do it because it builds my courage. So you're asking what can people do to build that courage? Because we're talking about courage a lot here to deal with the fear. My favorite thing to say is people are going to hate me for this. Take a cold shower in the morning when you're sitting in the shower, right.

And you know you have to turn it to cold. It takes courage to do so. But courage is a muscle that you can build and doesn't have to be some big courageous act that you're doing. You can just flip that now to cold. You get a lot of benefits, right? It's going to increase your metabolism, it's going to decrease your stress level, it's going to improve your sleep, it's going to improve your cardiovascular system. But at the same time, it's going to build your courage. So find something, whatever it is, go kiteboarding, take a coach or whatever makes you uncomfortable, because it's the exact same thing as when you're working it's finding that 90 minutes each morning to do the most difficult project first. That takes courage. But it's really this 90 minutes. I'm going to say, I'm going to go out here on a limb and say if you spend 90 minutes each day doing the most important thing you have to do, which you already know what it is that you're always pushing it for the end of the day when your will power is lower. So from a neuroscience perspective, Swift changed this around 90 minutes most difficult task.

You're going to grow your business much faster than working twelve hour days.

Absolutely.

Somebody should experiment with this and let me know how it goes.

Well, it's funny you say that, because.

That'S one of the things I have a habit of taking on new things because I like shiny objects and squirrels and that's where we all do. Yeah. And that's one of the things that I'm going back to because I have a software company I've had for 20 years. It takes me, I don't know, 4 hours a week to run the whole company. And it provides a pretty good source of income. And I need to think, how did I get there? And a lot of it was doing the things I didn't want to do and I loved. You mentioned the cold shower. I did the cold shower thing this morning. Today was my idea. Yesterday morning. And I just needed that extra. I'm trying to do it. And it's funny. Some days you talk about basic courage, some days I'm like, no, I just can't do it. And it's really. It's water weight. Come on, man. I know. Exactly.

I'm doing the same way I used to go in Lake Tahoe and Dopping in Lake Tahoe and same thing. Some days I can do it, some days I can do it. It's really interesting how our mind works, isn't it? You're the exact same person, the exact same shower with the exact same.

Absolutely.

I know.

Yeah. That works for me when I go to the beach on Fridays, usually if I've played a little during winter in the water here, maybe gets 60 or something. It's not crazy cold compared to other parts of the world, but I just have to jump in. That's easier for me. I can just do that because then in the air, I still don't feel then when you hit, okay, now I'm in.

You technically don't suppose to shock your nervous system wimp Hoffing style, but the idea is that it calms down your nervous system. But whatever works.

I have to read more on that. I've heard of that. And I have a friend that does it. So awesome. Wow, there's so much from this. And again, for those listening, just want to make sure it's clear if you didn't hear the first part of the interview. We're not just talking about avoiding work. We're talking about being more retention with it really choosing your journey if you want to work more. And if that works for you, great. But being able to approach from different areas. Shark Tank, little, if you don't mind. And I'll put all the links in here. Where can people learn more about your book, your work, and the coaching you do in your mastermind?

Certainly. So the framework we just kind of briefly touched on, they can download a free ebook with case studies and examples from people and companies who are implementing this framework and links to further podcasts if they want to listen to@unhustel.com ebook. Everything else is available on my website. I'm working on my book. I'm doing it in public and doing some beta testing with people so there's still an opportunity for people to get involved with that. Everything is@unhustled.com. I have a community and I have a mastermind group program as well and do some training with companies so all of the offerings are on the website.

Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing. There's so much to what you've brought here today and really appreciate it. For those of you all, I know a couple of people that are in her ebook and they're both awesome people doing really good work. I really encourage you to check it out and as always I look forward to helping you impact more people and make more money in less time doing what you do best so you can better enjoy your family, your friends and your life. Thanks for listening.

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